Texas Fauna Project

TRANSCRIPT

INTERVIEWEE: Chris Jackson

INTERVIEWER: David Todd

DATE: October 3, 2024

LOCATION: Carrollton, Texas

SOURCE MEDIA: M4A, MP3 audio files

TRANSCRIPTION: Trint, David Todd

REEL: 4213

FILE: Coyote_Jackson_Chris_CarrolltonTX_3October2024_Reel4213.mp3

 

David Todd [00:00:01] Good deal.

 

Chris Jackson [00:00:02] Okay. I got, I got that notification.

 

David Todd [00:00:05] Good. Good. All right. Well, let’s get started.

 

David Todd [00:00:10] Good afternoon. I’m David Todd, and I have the privilege of being here with Chris Jackson.

 

David Todd [00:00:16] And with his permission, we plan on recording this interview for research and educational work on behalf of the Conservation History Association of Texas and for a book and a website for Texas A&M University Press, and finally, for an archive at the Briscoe Center for American History, which is at the University of Texas at Austin.

 

David Todd [00:00:36] And I want to stress that he would have all equal rights to use the recording as he sees fit. It is his.

 

David Todd [00:00:44] So I want to make sure before we went any further that that’s okay with you.

 

Chris Jackson [00:00:49] Yes. Yes, it is.

 

David Todd [00:00:51] Okay. Good. All right. Well, let’s get started.

 

David Todd [00:00:54] It is Thursday, October 3rd, 2024. It’s about 3:30 in the afternoon, Central time. My name is David Todd, and I’m representing the Conservation History Association of Texas. And I am based in Austin.

 

David Todd [00:01:11] And we are conducting a remote interview with Chris Jackson, who is based in the Carrollton, Texas, area. Chris is a software engineer and he’s devoted a great deal of his time since about 2005 to a project known as DFW Urban Wildlife. And some of his work can be seen in his 2013 book, “In Your Backyard: Discovering Urban Wildlife”. And on the website www.DFWUrbanWildlife.com.

 

David Todd [00:01:45] Today, we’ll be talking about Mr. Jackson’s life and career to date and focus on what he can tell us about urban wildlife in Texas and especially the coyotes that have come to settle in the state’s cities and suburbs.

 

David Todd [00:02:02] And I thought just to start with some questions – maybe we’ll do this sort of chronologically. And I was wondering if there were any people or events – family, friends, etc. –  in your childhood that might have gotten you interested in wildlife and coyotes, or just nature and the outdoors in general?

 

Chris Jackson [00:02:25] So that’s a nice question. I, I actually was surprised when I started thinking about it for the first time because there were no names that came up immediately. And I do feel like maybe I’m misremembering or leaving someone out. But, as best as I can remember, I’ve just always had an affinity for nature.

 

Chris Jackson [00:02:49] I guess one of the first things that came to mind when I, when I started thinking about how to address this question was my mom, constantly warning me away from the neighborhood creek when I was a boy, you know, “You’re going to get snake bit. Don’t go down there.” You know, and that was the only place I wanted to go in the neighborhood.

 

Chris Jackson [00:03:10] So I think I’m going to have to blame just a natural affinity for this sort of thing. And it’s largely unexplainable, I think.

 

David Todd [00:03:19] It’s just the mysteries of genes, I guess.

 

Chris Jackson [00:03:25] Mm hmm.

 

David Todd [00:03:25] Do you recall your first exposure to coyotes, either in captivity or in the wild?

 

Chris Jackson [00:03:33] So, that’s also an interesting question, I think, because, you know, it’s a little tricky to answer. So, I can tell you this, that when I was a boy investigating our woods close to our house. You know, I grew up in Lewisville, Texas, which was quite rural at the time. You know, we moved there in the early ’70s, and the population was probably between 5 and 6000 people at that time.

 

Chris Jackson [00:04:03] So, we were in a little subdivision on the west side of 35, and quite a bit of that area was just completely undeveloped. And I was fortunate enough to have a little creek that flowed through not too far from my house. And I liked to spend a lot of time down there.

 

Chris Jackson [00:04:20] And I do have clear recollections of finding canine tracks in the mud by the creek with some regularity. You know, I knew enough even six, seven, eight years old to recognize a canine track when I saw it.

 

Chris Jackson [00:04:38] But, and this speaks to a larger point about urban wildlife, you know, at some point, the difference between getting to observe these things and not getting to observe these animals in an urban environment is allowing for the possibility that they’re there? Right?

 

Chris Jackson [00:04:56] So, when I was a kid, I felt like we were too urban to have a chance that there would be coyotes in the area. And so, I was sure that those canine tracks I was seeing were dog tracks. So, I dismissed them as dog tracks.

 

Chris Jackson [00:05:14] And, you know, I guess I never saw any coyotes. I never had any firsthand experiences with them at that young of an age, which speaks to my abilities as an observer. Because I think, I’m sure they were, they were everywhere at the time, and they probably kept a close eye on me as I was poking around down in the woods.

 

Chris Jackson [00:05:35] So, then I can move on. My first, the first job I ever had was at a, there was a chicken farm there in Lewisville. And the boy of the family that ran that farm was my age. He was a friend of mine at school. And so, you know, he helped me get my first job at that farm. And so I was about 13, I guess.

 

Chris Jackson [00:05:59] And one day I came to work and he was excited. He had told me that he had shot a coyote in their cow pasture that morning. And I can remember being really amazed by that, because, you know, first I didn’t expect that there would be any coyotes. And for him to be able to get a shot off and get one was even more remarkable, you know.

 

Chris Jackson [00:06:22] So, that’s probably my first actual firsthand experience with a coyote. And so, he took me out to show me the carcass and, of course, I was fascinated with it.

 

Chris Jackson [00:06:35] And then,  I suppose it was many, many more years later on before I started to get an idea about how common coyotes were in urban areas. And this will take me into college. And there were a few opportunities, or a few instances that I can remember, when I might have been pulling an all-nighter or working on something late. And I would get in the car to go run an errand. And I can remember a couple of instances where I was in downtown Denton and a coyote crossed the road in front of me. You know, very clearly it was a coyote.

 

Chris Jackson [00:07:11] So, that was probably my first experience that gave me some real insight to the fact that these animals maybe, you know, that they were in the city and that they may be more common than I had ever guessed before.

 

Chris Jackson [00:07:25] So, I think that long answer is the answer to your question, I think.

 

David Todd [00:07:31] Okay. No, that’s great. It’s interesting when you get these sorts of staggered kinds of exposures to something, something when you’re quite young and then, you know, years later it comes back like some kind of echo, when you’re in college.

 

Chris Jackson [00:07:42] Mm hmm.

 

David Todd [00:07:46] Well, so for some people, it’s experiences like you had, actually out in the outdoors where you saw the animal. But I’m wondering if some of your early kind of exposures to wildlife of some kind of might have also come from TV or movies or books that you were reading – something out in the media that hit you?

 

Chris Jackson [00:08:09] Yeah, of course. I’ve always just devoured books of various different kinds, you know. But animals and nature were always of great interest to me. And, you know, I can remember very young discovering – my parents had bought this Reader’s Digest book, I believe. It might have been National Geographic. But it was this big, heavy-duty, encyclopedic type of book. It had a green canvas cover on it. You know, the dust jacket had worn out a long time before I got my hands on it. Or maybe I wore the dust jacket out on it. But I can remember just spending hours in that book.

 

Chris Jackson [00:08:57] Another one that came to mind when I was thinking about this question was, I guess I got a book on snakes from one of my elementary school book fairs, just a little paperback book – short, you know, I don’t know, maybe 50 pages. But, you know, every page was dedicated to a different snake. And I can remember just being fascinated by that book.

 

Chris Jackson [00:09:21] And one of the reasons I’m bringing this one up is because not too long ago I was going through some of our things in our storage room, and I’ll be darned if I don’t still have that book tucked away with the worn cover and everything.

 

Chris Jackson [00:09:35] And then after that, you know, you might think about TV. And I’m sure these are the usual suspects, but there was Mutual of Omaha’s “Wild Kingdom”. You ever hear that one before, I bet?

 

Chris Jackson [00:09:46] And then there was, you know, I tuned into PBS pretty regularly as a kid as well. And there were several shows, several episodes. And I don’t I don’t remember which show it was. I think this was pre “Nature”. So, it was probably “Nova” or maybe some other special or something.

 

Chris Jackson [00:10:05] But I can remember one on hummingbird moths. And then, you know, I was intrigued by that. I went outside that night and just coincidentally discovered a hummingbird moths on my mom’s cannas that night, that evening, as it was getting dark.

 

Chris Jackson [00:10:20] There was one on shrews that I can remember just being fascinated with.

 

Chris Jackson [00:10:26] I think the one that that really made a big impression on me was the one on praying mantises. And they had a whole segment on just how fast those praying mantises were, you know, how they were able to catch house flies. And I believe it was the next day I went out in the yard looking for praying mantises, for the first time ever. And I found one in our yard and it was poised and prepared to catch, I think it was like a little skipper-type butterfly. And I sat there and watched for just a few minutes and it just edged closer. It kind of did this little dance like they described in the show, and then it struck out and grabbed that butterfly. And that is the first and the only time I’ve ever seen a praying mantis actually catch prey like that.

 

Chris Jackson [00:11:15] And then I guess the last show worth mentioning is probably “Marty Stouffer’s Wild America”. That’s a little later on, in the ’80s I think, when that was popular. But that made a big impression on me.

 

Chris Jackson [00:11:28] And he had one episode in particular that was about how to engage in, I guess, wildlife documentaries, creating those wildlife documentaries yourself. And that was what the episode was about, if I’m remembering correctly. It’s been a long time now, but that probably, in some ways, is one of the inspirations for DFW Urban Wildlife. You know, that’s probably what got me thinking about it, about doing it myself at some point.

 

David Todd [00:12:03] Great. You know, it’s always nice to try to think back about what the origins of the projects that you take on might be. And you know what the sort of source rock is for that.

 

David Todd [00:12:17] So, I think you mentioned a school fair but I was wondering if there were any teachers, classmates, events at school that might have been influential for your interest in wildlife and coyotes and so on.

 

Chris Jackson [00:12:35] So, again, maybe mostly tangentially. You know, of course, early on, it’s like I said, I always spend an inordinate amount of time in the woods. And I had friends that would indulge me, especially when I was young. You know, I don’t know that they necessarily enjoyed it as much as I did, but they would come along and, you know, I hope they had a good time.

 

Chris Jackson [00:13:01] We did all kinds of things. It wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t like I was down there conducting scientific experiments or anything, mostly just getting into mischief.

 

Chris Jackson [00:13:08] But then as I got into high school, it was kind of the same kind of thing. But I had some friends in high school that had some outdoor experience that I didn’t. I mean, I had friends that were hikers, that were hunters, that were campers. And these guys started to help fill in some of the gaps for me, you know, in terms of getting a feel for what was going on and how to do things, you know. So, many different friends.

 

David Todd [00:13:39] So, more peers? Or were there some teachers as well that might have led you down this path?

 

Chris Jackson [00:13:47] Peers, mostly peers. I have thought about the teachers and stuff like that. And my teachers probably, you know, they probably recognized a hopelessness in my attitude, and maybe decided not to engage. No, that’s not true. I had some good teachers, but I don’t think I ever had teachers indulge me in this area. You know, I had an art teacher that helped me with art. I had English teachers that encouraged the writing. You know, I had teachers that helped and encouraged the photography hobby.

 

[00:14:27] But in terms of wildlife and stuff like that, I don’t think I had any anybody that really kind of took my hand and led me on that subject.

 

David Todd [00:14:37] Okay, Well, let’s dive into just one animal. I mean, it sounds like you’ve been interested in things from praying mantises to butterflies to shrews.

 

Chris Jackson [00:14:52] Absolutely.

 

David Todd [00:14:52] But just to take one example, let’s talk about the coyote. It’s such a fascinating animal. Can you give us a quick 101-level introduction to the coyote? You know something about the usual life cycle and the ecological niche, the general ecological niche that it might have filled?

 

Chris Jackson [00:15:17] Sure. Well, I’ll do what I can. Of course, coyote is Canis. They’re related to dogs and wolves and jackals and I guess any other canine – African wild dogs are distantly related to those canines. Even more distantly related to, I guess, like foxes.

 

Chris Jackson [00:15:39] They are medium-sized predators. But that’s not the end of the story with their diet. They’re also omnivorous. They’ll eat vegetation as well, just like your dog will. You know, you feed your dog a hamburger, he’ll eat the lettuce, the tomato, the bun, everything. Right?

 

Chris Jackson [00:16:01] Let’s see, I guess. They are family-oriented, family group oriented. They defend small territories as family groups. They mate in the late winter, early spring. Litters begin in the spring and early summer. I guess they mature around one year.

 

Chris Jackson [00:16:23] And, you know, a couple of things can happen at that point. They can start to, the young can start to move off to find their own territories or they can remain with the family group for some time. There’s a lot of give and take, especially in an urban environment. You know, there’s a lot of competition for prime areas. So the family group is important in terms of being able to defend territories.

 

Chris Jackson [00:16:52] And that’s a situation that generally stays in flux for the coyote’s lifetime. They gain territories and lose territories depending on, you know, what kind of alliances are able to form and what their general health is and things of that nature.

 

David Todd [00:17:16] So, I guess part of maintaining this sort of family/clan structure, they must have ways of communicating with one another. And I was curious if you could talk about some of their behavior, you know, how they greet one another, how they might indicate dominance or submission, how they mark their territory. Any kind of insights like that you could help with?

 

Chris Jackson [00:17:45] For sure. You know, that behavior is all very typically canine. You know, I guess one of their closest relatives is the gray wolf. And as a consequence, that would also make the dog a very close relative.

 

Chris Jackson [00:18:02] That’s one of the interesting things about North American canine species. These large ones – the dog, the different wolf species we have here, the coyotes – they can all interbreed with each other and produce fertile offspring.

 

Chris Jackson [00:18:16] So, their behaviors are very similar, especially in terms of the things that you’re talking about – you know, submissions, greetings. It is all what you would come to expect from a dog. You know, they like to lick faces. They wag their tails. You know, they vocalize. They’ll roll over on their back as acts of submission. They scent mark with urine and feces. They’ll scratch the ground to create a visual clue that they’ve been there.

 

Chris Jackson [00:18:49] And then they also, you know, spend a lot of time investigating other scent marks, you know, as part of their daily activities. You know, they patrol their territories and make sure everything’s in order. And I guess this scent marking and checking is kind of analogous to Facebook for people. I think it’s a way for them to engage each other remotely and to stay up to date on what’s happening in the area, you know.

 

David Todd [00:19:22] That’s so interesting. They’ve got a little time machine there where they can check a scent mark that may be days old, but it tells them what was going on in that prior time.

 

Chris Jackson [00:19:34] Yeah. And you know, some of this is speculative, but, you know, I think that they probably can tell things about the general health of the animal that was there before them. And maybe, maybe more important things like if this animal is going to be aggressive. Or, you know, maybe they can make some judgments about why the animals in the area.

 

Chris Jackson [00:19:56] You can tell, I mean, whether you’re talking about a dog or a coyote, boy, you can tell that that activity is very, very important to them. You know, they really engage in it with 100% concentration and focus.

 

David Todd [00:20:12] Yes, that’s right. I can’t tell you how many time I’ve been walking my dog, and he doesn’t want to move on. He’s still got some more reading to do.

 

Chris Jackson [00:20:24] Yeah. Looks like it’s just grass, right? But there’s more there.

 

David Todd [00:20:29] Yes. Well, I think you mentioned that they are omnivorous. But tell us a little bit about what might be a typical prey for a coyote, especially in the urban area.

 

Chris Jackson [00:20:47] Okay. Yeah, that’s a good question, I think. So, as far as I can tell, they prefer small mammals and that we’ll get to the point, I think we’ll hit on this more later on. But you know, it’s one of the reasons that they are in our cities is because I think it’s kind of an ancillary benefit for them – these other animals like rats and squirrels and cottontails, those animals are able to survive in urban environments because one of the reasons is because people tend to surround themselves with an abundance. Right? And those animals are able to take advantage of that.

 

Chris Jackson [00:21:35] You know, with the rats, sometimes it’s really negative. You know, it’s also …  all these animals have the potential to have negative interactions, to get into trouble. Nobody likes it when the cottontail comes in and eats their vegetable garden. Right. But rats tend to get a bad rap for what they do. And they get into a lot more and can cause a lot more trouble.

 

Chris Jackson [00:21:57] But they are leveraging our abundance, basically, you know. And because they’re here, the coyotes are able to use them as food. And so, that’s one of the reasons the coyotes are here.

 

Chris Jackson [00:22:10] You know, I’ve also seen coyotes, and this is true in urban and in rural areas, it looks like one of the main animals that they will prey on is juvenile raccoons. An adult raccoon is generally going to be too much for a coyote to handle, I think. They’re big, they’re big, strong animals. But one thing that I have noticed through some of my camera trapping work is that it seems to me that these juvenile raccoons will get orphaned on a fairly regular basis. You know, sometimes these mother raccoons will have a big litter. And if one of them drops off or falls behind or something, then it’ll get left sometimes. And fortunately, those juvenile raccoons are capable. They can, you know, with a little bit of luck they can make it.

 

Chris Jackson [00:23:02] But if they run into a coyote, that may be the end of the road for them because that’s a nice meal. They’re a little bit bigger than a cottontail rabbit generally at that stage. And that is an animal that a coyote can handle. And so, I would say that most of the time when my trail camera reveals a coyote carrying some kind of prey animal, a large percentage of the time it’s a juvenile raccoon that he’s got.

 

Chris Jackson [00:23:28] And then, of course, in some urban areas, I’ve noticed coyotes regularly hunting feral cats. So, that’ll happen a lot of times near apartment complexes where there’s a large feral cat population.

 

Chris Jackson [00:23:46] And then, to the point I made earlier about them being omnivores, it’s interesting to watch what happens to their diet over the change of seasons. And so, and I may get this out of order now. It’s hard for me to remember, but at some point, as you move into the fall, they will switch their diet over to mesquite beans and honey locust beans. And you’ll notice that in their droppings. Their droppings will be full of these bean shells. And then, another favorite of theirs are persimmons. That’s a big favorite for coyotes where they’re available.

 

Chris Jackson [00:24:30] They like apples. That’s one of my that’s one of my secrets for camera trapping them is that if I really need to get a coyote in front of a trail camera, I’ll bait it with some apples. That’s a favorite: coyotes will almost always come and grab an apple or two.

 

Chris Jackson [00:24:46] But then as the summer turns into fall, like right now, you might have noticed that these grasshoppers are reaching adulthood and are mating. So, there’s a lot of differential grasshoppers and a lot of the bird grasshoppers, those great big grasshoppers. Coyotes will begin to eat those around this time of year. And you’ll see their scat will begin to contain a bunch of grasshopper exoskeletons in them.

 

Chris Jackson [00:25:14] So, they are opportunistic predators. They’ll eat whatever they can get, including they’ll even scavenge if they have to. But that’s generally what you’ll find them eating, all things the same.

 

David Todd [00:25:34] Okay. So, I think you may have answered the next question. I was wondering if there’s some kind of affinity that draws coyotes to cities and to people, because I imagine it it’s a risky, you know, situation where you’ve got people running around with their automobiles and they’re not exactly welcoming. And so there must be some sort of a draw. And I think you mentioned that there’s this abundance. Is that the major reason, or are there some other factors that you have to consider?

 

Chris Jackson [00:26:09] Right. Yeah. I guess when push comes to shove, I would have to say that that abundance that we provide in the city and in encouraging their prey animals to, you know, as a consequence encouraging their prey animals to be present, is probably the biggest attraction for them.

 

Chris Jackson [00:26:31] But, at the same time you have to recognize that canines and humans do have a very notable affinity for each other. You know, there is an attraction there.

 

Chris Jackson [00:26:44] But the flip side of that coin is, is that there’s also, you know, we also are bothered by wild canines, maybe more than any other animal. I mean, they, you know, there’s just this history of just relentless persecution on just any given species of wild canine. So, it’s a weird, it’s kind of a weird thing. You know you think about how much people love their dogs. And then you think about how poorly they think of wolves and coyotes often. You know, think of them as vermin, think and believe that they need to be eradicated and really have ill will towards them. It’s a strange dichotomy. Right? Because they’re basically the same animal. Very, very similar animals.

 

Chris Jackson [00:27:40] And so yeah, I do believe there’s some affinity there. It’s probably got a lot to break through though to express itself.

 

David Todd [00:27:51] Okay. So again, you’re giving us little teasers as you go along, laying some Easter eggs for us about maybe where these questions might go.

 

David Todd [00:28:02] And you mentioned camera traps. And I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about your use of those and the way you bait them and other ways that you try to monitor and survey and learn more about coyotes in your area.

 

Chris Jackson [00:28:19] Yeah. Well, so those trail cameras are just fantastic tools for learning more about wild animals just in general. Right? What an amazing tool that is. And, you know, that’s the thing I can credit my dad, that may be an answer to one of your earlier questions. Right? My dad got me my first trail camera for Christmas. Maybe around the time I started the website, in fact. And I use that and experimented with it – a little Stealth Cam – and just really became intrigued with the possibilities. And now I have a collection. I don’t know, I have maybe close to 30 trail cams and I’m operating most of those in the field at any given moment.

 

Chris Jackson [00:29:16] And they’re usually set up not with any specific animal in mind. I have to work pretty hard actually not to… you know, I always find myself camera trapping for the big animals, you know, that’s kind of my natural inclination. I’ll see deer sign and I’ll want a camera trap on that. I kind of force myself out of my comfort zone a lot.

 

Chris Jackson [00:29:38] But, you know, coyotes are always an animal that I have in mind when I set these trail cams and the camera traps. And I’ve had some good fortune. You know, I’ve had the good fortune of setting up a camera trap just right outside of a coyote den. And so, this was last summer. And last summer I got to watch those pups come out of the den and horse around in front of the camera for just weeks on end. You know, it was really, really instructive. That was really enlightening.

 

Chris Jackson [00:30:07] And another time I found a place in a vacant lot close to my house where the coyotes were kind of seeking refuge during the day. And I was able to set up there and monitor them. And they had places where they liked to bed down in particular. And so, I was able to put trail cameras on those spots and keep a real close eye on what they were doing during the day. Really remarkable.

 

Chris Jackson [00:30:31] I’ve laughed with my friends. I said, you know, when I started doing this back in in 2005, if somebody had told me that one day I’d be able to go out in one of our vacant lots and identify a place where a coyote was sleeping regularly, I never would have believed them, you know. And that really kind of makes me feel good to know that I’ve kind of achieved that level of being able to pursue this interest, you know.

 

David Todd [00:30:54] So, I’ve got a question for you. I think you mentioned that when you were a young boy, you’d go down to a creek near your house in Lewisville and that you didn’t see the coyotes, but you figured they were watching you. And I’m curious, when you’re setting up these trail cams, how do you conceal the fact that you’ve been there, and how do you keep from spooking them with the knowledge that you’re monitoring them.

 

Chris Jackson [00:31:20] Well, I don’t have to worry about those sorts of things. They are inquisitive by nature, right? So, and if they’re in the area, they know that I’m there. They’ll keep an eye on me. I’ve seen that on the trail cameras before, where I’ll set it and then some of these cameras I can check remotely. Then sometimes by the time I’m back to my car, they’ve already come to investigate the trail camera and see what’s what, you know. But no, I don’t have to take any special precautions or, you know, like maybe you’re thinking about leaving scent behind that would make them wary. This environment, the urban environment in particular, as you can imagine, is just loaded down with human scent. They’re not impressed with it.

 

Chris Jackson [00:32:05] You know, coyotes are cautious by nature. They’re very smart about what they get involved with generally, but they’re also very inquisitive.

 

David Todd [00:32:17] Okay. So, it sounds like you’ve got some special places where it’s been fruitful to monitor these coyotes. If I’m correct, I think that you’ve gone to places like Great Trinity Forest and Lewisville Lake. Are there any other places, or maybe you can describe those, where you’ve really been able to get a kind of rich, diverse impression of the life cycle of the coyote?

 

Chris Jackson [00:32:47] So, I can say this. So, when I talk about my favorite places, the things that make them my favorite places generally are convenience for me, right? They’re easy to get to and they’re close by.

 

Chris Jackson [00:32:58] So, here’s the thing about urban coyotes. You can study urban coyotes in Dallas-Fort Worth anywhere you choose to study them. They’re everywhere in the Metroplex. We have thousands and thousands of coyotes living in the city.

 

Chris Jackson [00:33:12] So, that means that I’ve been able to find them, for instance, in the wild places that you’re talking about down in the Great Trinity Forest, which is, you know, when you get in there pretty deep, it’s as wild as any place you can imagine, right?

 

Chris Jackson [00:33:26] And then there’s similar places around the Metroplex, mostly close to our reservoirs, you know, the public land close to our reservoirs.

 

Chris Jackson [00:33:37] But coyotes are not limited to those wild areas, man. You know, I do coyote work in my own neighborhood. Every neighborhood I’ve ever bothered to investigate coyotes, has turned up the presence of coyotes. That’s true of neighborhoods. That’s true of business parks. That’s true of downtown areas, school campuses, shopping centers. They’re, they’re everywhere.

 

Chris Jackson [00:34:07] And this speaks to their ability to stay out of sight and stay out of trouble. They generally don’t want to be seen by people. They don’t want to engage people. So, they work pretty hard to stay out of our way.

 

Chris Jackson [00:34:22] But they’re here. You can know they’re here. Golf courses, parks, those are other good areas to have a chance to see them. But they’re in your neighborhood. They definitely, I would say any given neighborhood you can count on the fact that coyotes pass through there with some regularity, you know.

 

David Todd [00:34:40] Well, is there any way to sort of quantify this? And, you know, I’d love to know how many coyotes. I mean, I think you mentioned thousands, you know, if there’s any way you can sort of give us some idea how many there are and what the trends have been. Are there more than there used to be or are there fewer? Is there a seasonal kind of fluctuation, anything like that?

 

Chris Jackson [00:35:07] Well, so I can’t speak to that with a lot of expertise. You know, I could maybe I could do some math, which I haven’t done and I’m probably not going to be able to do on the spot here.

 

Chris Jackson [00:35:18] But, you know, the family groups typically consist of 2 to 5 coyotes and they defend territories of various sizes. So here, close to my home, it looks like that a family group will kind of roam through about an area equal to about three subdivisions. You know, and I know that’s kind of non-specific, but I think that probably communicates well enough.

 

Chris Jackson [00:35:48] And then the fringes, they probably have overlap with other coyotes in the fringes.

 

Chris Jackson [00:35:56] One of the things that I understand about urban wildlife from my readings is that not only with coyotes, but with most urban animals, that their territories tend to be smaller than they would be in rural areas.

 

Chris Jackson [00:36:10] And that speaks to a couple of things. That speaks to the fact that in urban areas, the prime habitat is more limited. Right? But also, urban areas have enough resources for these animals where these animals can approach the carrying capacity of any given parcel of land. So, the land can actually contain more animals in an urban environment than it would have to contain in a rural environment.

 

Chris Jackson [00:36:44] But let’s see. So, if we were to guess, I couldn’t make a guess. I think thousands of coyotes is probably as specific as I’d be willing to get right now. But there are plenty of them, you know, there’s no shortage of coyotes in the city.

 

David Todd [00:37:00] And more or less than in the past?

 

Chris Jackson [00:37:03] And again, that’s a hard question to answer for me. You know, it’s like I alluded to earlier, I was not a great observer as a young man, and that hurts sometimes. I wish that I had the ability to go back and reexamine some of these areas, knowing what I know now to evaluate.

 

Chris Jackson [00:37:32] For instance, in those woods down there in in Lewisville, when I was a boy, I never saw a deer down there. I suspect they were present at the time. I don’t know how many there were. Might have been a small number, but I do know that they’re present there now. And the wooded area that I’m talking about is much more restrained. It’s much more urbanized now. And so, I don’t know.

 

Chris Jackson [00:38:04] My guess is, is that there are probably more coyotes in the city now than there were when I was a boy. And that would probably be for a couple of reasons. There are many, many generations into urban living now. So, they are accomplished at it. And also, I think that once they’re surrounded by urban and suburban areas, that removes the hunting pressure. You know, people are not allowed to legally discharge firearms in the city limits, not that there’s a lot of interest in killing coyotes among suburbanites in general, it doesn’t seem like. It seems like people are more accommodating in that regard.

 

Chris Jackson [00:38:47] So I think all those things work in their favor. So, if I had to guess, I would say there are probably more now than there were decades ago. Which is how long it was when I was a boy – decades and decades ago.

 

David Todd [00:39:03] All right. Well, you know, we have these categories for animals. And I think the one that did coyotes seem to be inserted in is the nongame type of animal, basically without hunting seasons or bag limits, although, you know, I guess there’s different kinds of ways to treat them, depending on whether it’s an urban area where you can’t, you know, fire a weapon. But can you give us like a little bit of background about, you know, its nongame status, how it came to be categorized that way?

 

Chris Jackson [00:39:46] Yeah. I’m going to have to speculate on this a little bit. But you know, the coyote, the wolves, any predator has historically been vilified, you know, all across the country. And, you know, and ranchers and farmers, of course, have got their livestock to protect. And so, you know, there’s just a conflict of interest there.

 

Chris Jackson [00:40:13] And I guess the typical way of thinking about things has changed over the years. Right? So, you go back to the 1800s, the early 1900s, and the attitudes about preserving nature and in honoring wildlife are different than they are now. And so certainly coyotes and wolves, mountain lions, bobcats, they’ve all been persecuted pretty heavily over the years, pretty relentlessly. And that continues even into the present.

 

David Todd [00:40:52] Okay. And then I guess there’s the flip side, where there are some people that, you know, have an affinity for coyotes and they want to feed them, maybe try to tame them, befriend them in some way. Have you run into that? And can you tell us anything about that kind of view of coyotes, particularly the urban ones?

 

Chris Jackson [00:41:14] You know, that’s an important point because when things go wrong in the city with coyotes, you know, when they have a bad interaction with people, which is not very common, it’s a rare occurrence. But when it does happen, it almost always is because of the kind of actions you just described. You know, and it certainly is well-meaning people that are doing these things. But what happens is when you engage a coyote and try to befriend it, especially if you feed it, it becomes habitualized. Right?

 

Chris Jackson [00:41:52] And you probably see the same behavior with your dogs. So, if you give your dog a special treat on the regular and I’m going to say my dogs, when I give my dogs a special treat on the regular, they become accustomed to that. They begin to expect it and then they begin to demand it, you know, and they get pretty tenacious about that. It affects their behavior. Right?

 

Chris Jackson [00:42:20] It’s the same way with coyotes. Once they get used to the idea of being fed by people, they start to look to people to feed them. And they can get pretty, they can get pretty aggressive about making their desires known. And that’s usually when something bad happens. That’s usually the underlying reason when a coyote turns aggressive towards people is that it’s been fed in person.

 

Chris Jackson [00:42:47] So, so those types of behaviors, I like to discourage that kind of stuff. Just engaging wild animals in general, I think, is to be discouraged. You know, it’s you know, it’s one thing to observe and appreciate them, but it’s another thing to try to actively engage them in any way, whether it’s trying to feed them, trying to befriend them, trying to get closer to them, trying to scare them off. You know, all these efforts to get, to gain engagement with a wild animal increases opportunities for something to go wrong.

 

Chris Jackson [00:43:27] And when a coyote does make a mistake or does something aggressive towards a person, that generally turns into a death sentence for the coyote. The authorities will get informed. And the authorities, you know, at that point they have to take action and, you know, it is the right thing to do. When a coyote attacks a person, you know, you’ve got to address that problem, you know.

 

David Todd [00:43:52] Okay. I follow you.

 

David Todd [00:43:55] So, we’ve been talking mostly about urban coyotes so far. And I was wondering if if you’ve noticed or read about, heard about differences in behavior between urban and rural coyotes. I’m sort of reminded of the country mouse and the city mouse. You know, that had different attributes. And I’m wondering if you have seen that. I think you mentioned earlier that coyotes seem to learn about the urban environment as they start to settle in. Is that something you’ve seen?

 

Chris Jackson [00:44:33] Yeah. That would be probably the most important difference, right? Because the fundamental underlying behaviors are not going to vary from animal to animal other than, you know, all animals, all species of animals have a spectrum of abilities. Right. There’s like a, you can imagine a bell curve. And just like people, everybody falls on the bell curve of ability in different places. Right?

 

Chris Jackson [00:45:00] But the set of bell curves that are available, the behavior bell curves that are available, are all the same whether the coyote is rural or urban.

 

Chris Jackson [00:45:10] But yeah, the urban coyotes do have some challenges that they have to learn about. And traffic may be the most challenging one for them. That’s probably the most important thing for them to master, and closely followed, if not equal, is how to avoid trouble with people: you know, how to stay out of sight and how important it is to avoid people. So, those are probably the two biggest differences.

 

Chris Jackson [00:45:37] You know, they, coyotes are very cautious. That’s another thing that I’ve learned from some of my trail camera work is, you know, I told you, I mentioned earlier that apples are kind of like my magic bait for them. They have a hard time resisting them. But despite that fact, they will investigate the setup several times before they let their guard down enough to to take that bait.

 

Chris Jackson [00:46:01] And that’s one of the reasons when you hear people reporting that coyotes are difficult to trap. That’s the reason. They come in and they’re careful and they can sniff out a trap if it’s there, a lot of times, you know.

 

David Todd [00:46:15] Okay. So, as you said there’s this group of canines that range from wolves to coyotes and all the way to dogs, and they can interbreed and have fertile offspring. So, there are clearly a lot of similarities. But when you think about like the behavior of a wolf and that of a coyote, how do you compare the two? What makes them similar and different?

 

Chris Jackson [00:46:52] Well, so, they’re clearly very different animals. Right? And their differences are mostly due to their size, I think. You know, like a wolf, the gray wolf in North America is a much larger animal. I think they can approach 80 to 100 pounds, you know, somewhere in that range, 75, 80, 100 pounds. They’re pretty big. They can be pretty large animals.

 

Chris Jackson [00:47:24] And they’re pack-oriented. Right? So, they’re kind of optimized for taking on larger game animals.

 

Chris Jackson [00:47:34] And coyotes are much smaller. In fact, a lot of people don’t really have a good understanding of how small a coyote really is. You know, a coyote starts to top out at around 35, 40 pounds. If you see them in the summer time, it’s easier to appreciate that because this is one thing that you’ll notice when you talk to people about it is, is that they carry a different coat of fur in the winter than they do in the summer. So, in the winter, they have this nice, lush, thick coat of fur to help keep them warm. And it also gives the impression that it’s a much larger animal than it really is.

 

Chris Jackson [00:48:16] In the summertime, they molt all heavy fur off and you get a look at how scrawny these guys really are, how skinny and scrawny they are. And so, if you can imagine what like a border collie is, is a dog that’s comparable in size to your typical coyote.

 

Chris Jackson [00:48:38] And as a consequence of that smaller size, a coyote is just not equipped to take on large game, you know. So, they stick to small mammals. We’ve talked about this.

 

Chris Jackson [00:48:50] They don’t really engage in cooperative hunting unless there’s something really unusual going on. Like you may find videos out there. One that I can remember is where a group of coyotes took on a deer, full-grown deer. And there were, I think it was just trail camera pictures. I don’t think it was video, but it was a sequence of trail camera pictures that lasted all night long.

 

Chris Jackson [00:49:18] And, you know, if you stop and think about that for a moment, you would recognize that there’s no way a full-grown deer would stay in one spot for, you know, for longer than a minute or two when he was being harassed by coyotes, much less all night long. Right?

 

Chris Jackson [00:49:35] So that that deer was restrained in some way. It was either injured or somebody had restrained it to set up this sequence of pictures.

 

Chris Jackson [00:49:45] But in that case, those coyotes were definitely working together to take that deer down and they were having to work hard. It took them all night to wear that deer down to where they had a chance to take it, take it on.

 

Chris Jackson [00:49:57] I think you’ll see the same kind of thing. I’ve heard reports of people that have lost livestock to coyotes. Coyotes will take advantage of livestock being in pens, sometimes, to bring them down, maybe work semi-cooperatively to do that.

 

Chris Jackson [00:50:12] But even when you see coyotes out in a field working as a family group together, they’re still generally hunting individually. You know, they may be on the same plot of land, working the same plot of land, but they’re each one of them is looking for his own rat or rabbit to catch. Right? So, they’re hunting individually.

 

Chris Jackson [00:50:30] And that’s a big difference between coyotes and wolves.

 

David Todd [00:50:35] Okay. So, one of the things that I think has been interesting over the last 50, 60 years has been this trend of, I think the term is genetic swamping, where coyotes have moved into the red wolves’ range down in southeast Texas, and they bred with them and hybridized with them. And pretty much, as I understand it, threatened their extinction as an independent species. And I was wondering if you’re familiar with that whole kind of expansion of range and what happened between those two canines.

 

Chris Jackson [00:51:16] Well, so I have done a good deal of reading on that, and that is of interest to me. And I guess I would start by saying that there’s even some question now about whether the red wolf is actually a species unto itself. Even to this late date, it seems like the science is not sure about that, hundred percent sure about it. It’s possible that there are that they’re a species unto their self.

 

Chris Jackson [00:51:46] There’s also some other possibilities that they could be a hybrid between gray wolves and coyotes. It could be that red wolves are a hybrid between a no longer existing unique species of wolf and coyotes. Or it’s possible that the red wolves are actually a species.

 

Chris Jackson [00:52:09] But that complicates the situation for sure. Because I mean, I think even today there’s some problems with their legal status because there are organizations that think of red wolves as hybrids rather than species. So, it makes it difficult to to create laws to protect them and whatnot.

 

Chris Jackson [00:52:30] But to your point about the coyotes swamping the genetics of the red wolves, that to me appears to be the most serious threat that the red wolf faces right now. So, that’s real and maybe a threat that can’t be overcome.

 

Chris Jackson [00:52:49] So, you may know the history of the red wolf. I think at some point in the early ’80s or late ’70s, they started to recognize that the red wolves in Texas and Louisiana were in a lot of trouble and that they were on the verge of extinction. And so, a group of of naturalists and biologists and other environmental scientists made an effort to capture the remaining wild population in Texas and Louisiana to try to preserve the species. Later, they got engaged, there was a reintroduction effort made in in North Carolina in an area called Alligator Island. And from the ’80s through the 20 teens, I think that was generally considered to be a pretty successful effort.

 

Chris Jackson [00:53:48] And then I think I believe what happened was that the coyotes finally reached North Carolina in sizable numbers and the reintroduction effort kind of started to collapse at that point.

 

Chris Jackson [00:54:03] And the last time I checked on it, it was in a lot of trouble. So, the population of red wolves, wild red wolves in Alligator Island had dropped from somewhere above 100 individuals down to about 18. And it was still falling.

 

Chris Jackson [00:54:21] And that decline, I think, is mostly due to the arrival of the coyotes because the coyotes will readily breed with the red wolves.

 

Chris Jackson [00:54:32] And also, they had to open up the ability to cull coyotes for various reasons. Once the coyotes arrived in North Carolina, you know, people had to address, especially ranchers and farmers, people that had interest in livestock had to address the trouble they were having with coyotes. So, they had to make it legal to shoot them.

 

Chris Jackson [00:54:55] And a lot of people can’t tell the difference between a coyote and a red wolf. Right? So, there were some red wolves that were being taken as well, and that was reducing their numbers.

 

Chris Jackson [00:55:09] That whole situation out there is kind of unfortunate. If you read about it, you’ll learn that they have to take some pretty extreme measures to protect those red wolves that are there. And that includes, you know, watching them very carefully to make sure that they don’t hybridize with coyotes. When they do, they cull the litter. You know, so they’ll go out there and they’ll kill the pups. And if too many coyotes present in the area, they’ll have to remove some of those animals.

 

Chris Jackson [00:55:46] It doesn’t, to me, it doesn’t feel like it is what it what they’re saying it is. Right? It’s supposed to be a reintroduction of wild red wolves. That doesn’t feel like wild red wolves to me. That feels like a very managed animal, like it’s just a big zoo. And I don’t think they’re accomplishing what they’re really trying to accomplish out there anymore. And it’s probably time to do a serious reevaluation.

 

Chris Jackson [00:56:15] And as you know, I was doing a little reading on this. It looks like they have expanded some efforts recently. I’m not familiar with them all, but I did see something about them doing an introduction into an island off the coast of Florida, maybe. And maybe that kind of thing may ultimately be the answer, where you get them in a place where they don’t have to compete with coyotes. Right?

 

Chris Jackson [00:56:42] So, two things they got to do. They need to establish very firmly that the red wolf really is a species. And they need to be able to protect them from coyotes in order for us to save that animal, that species. And that may mean finding an island somewhere. It might mean that we’re only able to keep them alive in captivity, you know.

 

David Todd [00:57:05] It is fascinating. Thanks very much.

 

David Todd [00:57:10] So, speaking of these red wolf / coyote hybrids, have you been tracking this question of what’s going on in Galveston Island, where there have been some canids found out there that seem to have a little bit of coyote blood and some red wolf traits?

 

Chris Jackson [00:57:34] I’m familiar with that. There’s been a lot of excitement about that. And I tend to characterize that excitement as being a little overblown. You know, they, you know, I’ve read some things that are just flat-out incorrect about that situation and it’s in reputable magazines in fact, reputable journals. I read I think it was some Texas Parks and Wildlife magazine was calling those Galveston canines. It was referred to them as being half coyote and half red wolf, which, of course, is an impossibility. Right? That would suggest that what they are is the first generation of pups created from a mixture of a full-blooded coyote with a full-blooded red wolf. And there’s just no way that that’s possible down there.

 

Chris Jackson [00:58:25] So I appreciate the excitement down there. It’s interesting, certainly, that they found red wolf markers in that population. They also found gray wolf markers in that population.

 

Chris Jackson [00:58:39] How interesting is it? My guess is, is that you could find a similar set of markers in probably almost every coyote in Texas and in Louisiana. I think that the coyote population is going to have genes from red wolves, going to have genes from gray wolves, as just standard fare in Texas. And that’s my suspicion.

 

Chris Jackson [00:59:07] So, you know, I got to qualify my level of expertise on this. I’m certainly not a biologist or a scientist. This is just based on my reading, my own exploration. So this is something that everybody should take with a grain of salt, of course. But that’s the way it looks to me that what those are down there in Galveston are just coyotes.

 

Chris Jackson [00:59:28] But it is nice to see that there are scientists and there’s efforts going on down there to explore it further. And I feel pretty confident that they’ll get it worked out.

 

David Todd [00:59:40] Okay. So, we talked a little bit about the red wolf / coyote situation. I was wondering if you could talk about another kind of set of relationships between different members of the canine clan and that’s between coyotes and dogs. You know, I think you mentioned that they can interbreed and they socialize, fraternize. What can you tell us about their, you know, interrelationships? I guess they are more common in urban areas maybe than they might be otherwise.

 

Chris Jackson [01:00:16] Well, I don’t know. I don’t know how common they are. There certainly are opportunities for them to come into contact with each other. And there’s again, just like, as you can imagine, there’s a broad spectrum of possibilities when they do encounter each other. And that’s mostly because dogs come in a wide variety of sizes and shapes. Right?

 

Chris Jackson [01:00:41] But, I have had some interesting experiences in the field when it comes to coyotes and dogs interacting with each other. And, you know, like I have come across on a couple of occasions now instances where dogs have taken up with coyotes and spent some time with them, running with them, going through the motions.

 

Chris Jackson [01:01:06] I can relate an instance when I was – this was at the Great Trinity Forest, which is an area that is particularly conducive to coyotes and dogs having opportunities to interact like this, just that area and close-in surrounding areas are kind of notorious in Dallas for being a place where people dump dogs, abandon dogs.

 

Chris Jackson [01:01:29] But I was in the woods about this time of year several years ago. And a friend of mine in me, we stepped out of the woods. We were following a game trail. We stepped out of the woods onto the dry lakebed. Lemmon Lake had dried up at that time. And so, we had walked up over the dam following the game trail, and we’re about to step down into the dry lakebed.

 

Chris Jackson [01:01:55] And we noticed, we heard a dog barking at us. And we looked up across the mudflats and out of the woods and tall grass on the east side of the lake, this big black pit bull came running out. And he was pretty fired up about seeing us. He came running towards us, barking the whole way until he got within about 50 yards. And then he kind of thought the better of it and kind of stopped and kind of reevaluated.

 

Chris Jackson [01:02:21] But right behind him, a pair of coyotes came out, followed him out of the woods. And they didn’t come after us, of course. They stayed where they were. But what was going on here is pretty clear, is that those coyotes were following the same game trail that we were on. And they were headed in the direction that we were coming from. And that was probably part of their morning routine, part of their morning patrol, and we were in their way.

 

Chris Jackson [01:02:49] So, those coyotes just laid down. You know, we’re probably 200, maybe 250 yards apart at this point. And they just laid down. They were going to wait us out, you know, wait for us to leave. The dog was excited about the whole thing. You know, he was excited. He tried to engage the coyotes, tried to get them to come up to see us. He at one point he decided, “Well, if we don’t want to do that, then let’s go the other way.” And he took off way down the lake bed, away from us, until he realized nobody was following him. And then he came back to be with the coyotes again.

 

Chris Jackson [01:03:21] And so we just kind of, we were fascinated by this whole thing. It was really a first experience like that I had ever had. And so, we just sat there and watched it play out. And eventually, the coyotes got tired of waiting for us and they all got up and turned around, went back into the grass the way they came. And the dog with them.

 

Chris Jackson [01:03:37] So, that was a dog, I don’t know if it was somebody’s dog that got out that day. You know, he was roughly the same size as those coyotes. But he was having a big adventure that day.

 

Chris Jackson [01:03:47] [And I just lost your video, by the way. There it is.].

 

Chris Jackson [01:03:49] And he was just having a big adventure with those coyotes and went back in the woods with them.

 

Chris Jackson [01:03:54] Now I left trail cameras behind that day. And my hope was to get some footage of that. And I actually got many more pictures and videos of the coyotes, but never did see the dog again. And so, you know, my guess is, is that the dog spent however much more time he could with those coyotes. And then when it got to be dinner time, he decided to go on back home.

 

Chris Jackson [01:04:21] But since then I’ve seen many other instances of that. At the time when I made that encounter public, a friend of mine sent me some video he took on the Trinity River. And it actually showed a similar-sized dog running with a female coyote that was obviously pregnant. So, it was a very, very quick view of the dog and the coyote coming along together. It was very intriguing to see that there was no question that that coyote female was pregnant.

 

Chris Jackson [01:04:59] But it is interesting, you know, how do they size each other up? You know, from what I’ve gathered, the dogs almost certainly see coyotes as other dogs. Right? And that’s understandable. They look like dogs. They act like dogs. Dogs will, I think, when they are found in proximity with coyotes, most of the time it looks it’s the dog that’s pursuing the relationship, more than the coyote is.

 

Chris Jackson [01:05:37] Dogs want to want to have friends. Coyotes, on the other hand, they’re wild animals. They have to be a little more serious about things. And they’re probably a little more conservative about breaking the rules of normalcy. Right? So, they seem to to tolerate the dogs where they can. I’ve seen a coyote trying to get away from a dog that was just relentless about being friends with it.

 

Chris Jackson [01:06:04] And then there’s the deal when a dog is decidedly smaller than a coyote. In those cases, it’s possible that a coyote will see the dog as a prey animal.

 

Chris Jackson [01:06:17] And then any other way, of course, that dogs can interact with each other. You know, even you go to a dog park, some dogs get along, some dogs don’t. You know, you’ve probably seen this yourself where a fight will just break out and who knows why, you know. Other times dogs will be friends.

 

Chris Jackson [01:06:37] I think those same kinds of dynamics are at work when dogs interact with coyotes.

 

Chris Jackson [01:06:44] Interesting thing that I heard. I had a discussion with a friend of mine – she ran a little wildlife business and she dealt with nuisance animals. She tried to deal with them in humane way. She had a bunch of techniques that were specialized for dealing with these situations. But. But through our conversations, you know, she did acknowledge for me that these coyotes do take pets on occasion.

 

Chris Jackson [01:07:11] Urban coyotes will take cats. They will take small dogs on occasion. But she said that in general, coyotes tend to prefer house cats. And when a small dog is taken, it is generally a bobcat that’s doing that.

 

Chris Jackson [01:07:26] So it’s almost like the coyotes can recognize their kinship with the dogs, even when they’re small. And the bobcats can recognize their kinship with the house cats. And, of course, when push comes to shove, these animals have to eat, you know, and so they’ll break the rules if they have to, if they’re desperate enough.

 

Chris Jackson [01:07:47] But I’ve seen some evidence myself that that’s true. That they recognize their kinship: the bobcats recognize their kinship with house cats, and then coyotes recognize their kinship with the dogs. And they respect that kinship, you know.

 

David Todd [01:08:05] That’s fascinating. You know, that species barrier seems very porous and fluid. That’s fascinating.

 

David Todd [01:08:16] Well, so this is, again, something you touched on earlier, but I was wondering if you can talk about the relationship not of, you know, dogs and coyotes, and coyotes and wolves, but rather coyotes and people, and about conflicts that might arise. I think you talked earlier about the problems of engaging. You know, you just don’t want to do that. But what is your insight about how humans and coyotes can best coexist, where their territories overlap?

 

Chris Jackson [01:08:52] Ah. Well, so, you know, of course, I can mostly speak to my own experience, but in my experience, the effort to coexist with coyotes is almost, it requires almost no effort. You know, you just have to be willing to let them go about their business.

 

Chris Jackson [01:09:16] I’ve never had a negative encounter with coyotes. And that’s with hundreds of encounters that I can note. Right? I encounter them on the regular, maybe multiple times a month these days, now that I know to keep my eyes open for them.

 

Chris Jackson [01:09:33] But you have to qualify that to a degree. Right? With the fact that everybody has a different affinity for animals. Right? So, animals don’t respond to everybody in the same way. And not every animal responds in the same way.

 

Chris Jackson [01:09:48] But I think if you if you talk about it in the context of pets, you know, I think everybody maybe can recall an instance where a dog didn’t like Uncle Ted. Or, you know, this dog prefers women to men, or this cat prefers men to women. You know, those are things that we know, you know, that most of us have experienced in real life or heard about.

 

Chris Jackson [01:10:16] You’ll see that in dog rescue notices all the time. You know, “This dog would be better placed with a woman. He doesn’t seem to like men”. Things of that nature. So, I’m sure that’s true with coyotes as well. You know, there’s probably some people that, for whatever reason, bring out the worst in coyotes.

 

Chris Jackson [01:10:39] You know, my own experience is that they have always chosen to flee from me as their first best option. That’s 100% of the time. And I can attest to that. As frustrating as a wildlife photographer, where your objective is to get as close as you can and try to get a nice picture of them. You know, that’s one of the things they do that makes it difficult, is that when they know that you that they have your attention, they become concerned and want to want to split, you know. They want to break that. That’s what sends them packing.

 

Chris Jackson [01:11:23] And that’s what I have experienced as normal coyote behavior. When I encounter them, they want to put distance between me and themselves -universally, 100% of the time. That’s whether I’ve got my dogs with me, whether I’m by myself.

 

Chris Jackson [01:11:38] So, my dogs are roughly 50 and 60 pounds. And so, you know, it might be different if I was walking a Yorkie or something like that.

 

Chris Jackson [01:11:50] So, my advice to anybody who is concerned about this sort of thing is the first step is to recognize that the coyotes are present. You know, so that you’re not surprised when you encounter one. You know, everybody in Dallas-Fort Worth needs to know that there’s a chance you’re going to turn a corner one day and come face-to-face with a coyote, you know, or you’re going to see one down at the park, or coming through your neighborhood. So, that’s step one.

 

Chris Jackson [01:12:21] And next thing is to know what to do about it. But you don’t have to do anything about it. Right? It’s nothing to get excited about. A lot of people will see a coyote for the first time and they will think that because they’re seeing it for the first time, it just arrived and that it must be dealt with, you know.

 

Chris Jackson [01:12:40] So, they’ll get on the phone with Animal Services and try to get Animal Services involved. And of course, Animal Services and most Animal Services and DFW municipalities won’t respond to a phone call like that. They understand already that coyotes are present. They usually have information on their website to that regard, you know. And so, they’ll only pursue it if for some reason that the coyote becomes aggressive.

 

Chris Jackson [01:13:11] And the way you keep that from happening is, like we mentioned earlier, is you just don’t engage them, you don’t engage with them. You let them run. You give them room to get away from you. You don’t try to engage them.

 

Chris Jackson [01:13:23] You know, there’s this school of thought that you should haze every coyote that you come across. I don’t necessarily agree with that. I don’t want to counter any expert advice. If an expert tells you to address a coyote with hazing, then you should by all means do it. And any time a coyote is not behaving normally, you know, that should be part of the repertoire for dealing with it is to haze it first.

 

Chris Jackson [01:13:49] But I don’t believe there’s a need to haze as your default response to encountering a coyote. You know, in my opinion, the best thing to do is just not engage at all.

 

Chris Jackson [01:14:03] If you have pets, you have to protect your pets. Right? There is a danger, however remote. Right? There is a danger that they can hurt your pets. But just like with all other dangers, you know, automobile traffic, disease, fights with other pets, even people can harm your pets. Right? As a responsible pet owner, you have to take steps to protect your pet.

 

Chris Jackson [01:14:26] With dogs and cats, it mostly means keeping an eye on them. You know, you keep a dog on a leash. That’s municipal code in most cities that when you’re outside with your dog, it needs to be on a leash. And cats, cats should be kept inside. You know, if you let your cat run loose outside at night, they’re in danger, not just from coyotes. The list of dangers is long, and coyotes are way down at the bottom.

 

Chris Jackson [01:14:52] But, but, you know, to protect your cat, you have to, you know, force that sacrifice, if that’s the way you want to see it, on them. They have to stay inside the house to be as safe as they can be.

 

Chris Jackson [01:15:06] Now I think what the statistics show that outdoor cat lives about two years on average. It’s dangerous for them out there.

 

Chris Jackson [01:15:17] But then, so the last thing I guess I would mention is that if you’re outside, you know, you recognize that coyotes are present. You need to have a plan. You need to know what you’re going to do if you encounter one, you know, and that needs to be whether they’re aggressive or not, you know. Most of the time they’re not going to be aggressive. So, your plan can be just to let them go about their business, give them time to move on.

 

Chris Jackson [01:15:44] But you also need to think about what you might do if they were to become aggressive, especially if you’ve got a pet to protect, and be ready for that. And along the whole length of whatever walk you’re taking that day, you know, you need to have some idea of what you’re going to do if you encounter a coyote, you know.

 

David Todd [01:16:06] Yes. Just being able to expect and anticipate what might happen. You don’t surprise yourself or the animal.

 

Chris Jackson [01:16:15] Yes. That’s probably the most important aspect of it.

 

David Todd [01:16:18] I think you mentioned this earlier that there’s been an understandable campaign against coyotes over the past number of years because of folks trying to protect their livestock or, you know, other kinds of risks that they saw. Can you talk a little bit about the different control strategies that have come up about coyotes, whether it’s killing them, trapping them, relocating them and any devices they’ve used to do that?

 

Chris Jackson [01:16:51] Oh. Well, so I’m certainly not an expert in that area. You know, I have some general knowledge about what’s going on.

 

Chris Jackson [01:16:57] I don’t think there’s been a lot of efforts to relocate them. You know, the main objective of efforts like that is to just eradicate the coyotes. So, you know, they’re always in danger of being shot. They’re in danger of being poisoned. I read a little bit the other day about some kind of a cyanide cannon or gun that they used to use where the idea was that the coyote would trigger it and get a mouthful of cyanide. And but I think some kids got into those things and they eventually ended up making them illegal.

 

Chris Jackson [01:17:35] Again, I’m not sure about these facts, but just to give you guys some ideas of what is possible. I’m sure they’re snared. I think any way people can kill coyotes, they’ll do it, you know.

 

David Todd [01:17:51] Okay.

 

Chris Jackson [01:17:51] And there are, you know, there’s a lot of people that are accepting of coyotes. But there’s also a lot of people that have that mindset that they still need to be eradicated. And so, that’s still prevalent in the general population.

 

David Todd [01:18:07] Okay. Maybe we can talk about sort of the flip side of that. You know, there are some folks that, you know, feel kindly towards coyotes. And if they see one with mange or, you know, a broken limb or some other kind of a wound, they’ll try to rehabilitate them. And I was wondering if you’ve run into any of these rehabilitation operations and have some insights you could share about, you know, why they do that and how they do it.

 

Chris Jackson [01:18:39] So coyotes are a difficult animal to try to rehab, and that’s mostly because they don’t do well in captivity. Right? So, if you try to, you know, like if you were to capture a coyote with a broken leg and you had to keep it restrained in a cage, they can do more damage to themselves trying to escape that cage than any amount of good you could do for them.

 

Chris Jackson [01:19:03] And so, it’s very rare, I think, for coyotes to be rehabbed by wildlife rehabilitators, licensed rehabbers.

 

Chris Jackson [01:19:11] The deal with mange is a little bit different. It does seem like urban coyotes (and again, you know, I’m not 100% certain of my facts here), but it does seem to me like urban coyotes are afflicted by mange disproportionately. You know, there’s some speculation that they get secondary poisoning from consuming rats and whatnot that have been poisoned with warfarin. And I guess the idea is that the warfarin damages the coyote’s immune system and makes them more susceptible to catch a mange. You know, mange is caused by mites.

 

Chris Jackson [01:20:08] So, I don’t know. I don’t know how true that is. I have seen enough to make me wonder if, yeah, it does look like urban coyotes are afflicted with mange disproportionately.

 

Chris Jackson [01:20:23] Mange is a tough nut to crack. Boy, it’s a miserable disease. You know, you can’t look at a coyote with mange and not just have it pull at your heartstrings, you know, because it’s just miserable. It is just horrible. It’s a horrible disease. It’s a horrible, painful way to die. You know, they are in such discomfort. They itch so bad, they scratch all their fur off their body, you know.

 

Chris Jackson [01:20:45] And that, of course, makes them vulnerable in the wintertime when the weather turns bad. At the same time, I’ve seen coyotes with severe cases of mange hang on for year after year after year. You know, that’s how resilient and resourceful they can be, you know. But I don’t know.

 

Chris Jackson [01:21:05] I was tracking a set of coyotes with mange a few years ago. And we had about seven of them coming through this area, this vacant lot area, with various degrees of mange. And then you recall that really severe cold snap we had in February a few years ago. That was the year that I was doing this. And the before and after was really remarkable. That cold snap went ahead and took out the bulk of those seven coyotes. I only saw 2 or 3 after that cold snap went through. So, they weren’t able to survive that cold snap.

 

Chris Jackson [01:21:43] Now, the difficulty with treating mange is that the mite has a life cycle that helps it evade the treatment. So ivermectin, you know, that’s a medicine that’s been in the news. Most people I think are familiar with it for one reason or the other these days, most probably with the way, with the talk surrounding COVID. But it’s a medicine that can be used to treat the mites in mange.

 

Chris Jackson [01:22:16] And, you know, it really is a miracle treatment. It’s a miracle drug. No kidding. It’s used for all kinds of things, deworming. It’s used in areas, people use it. You consider it a miracle drug. People use it in areas where internal parasites are of issue, you know. So, it’s got many uses. But it can be used to treat coyotes with mange.

 

Chris Jackson [01:22:40] But the problem is, there’s a couple of problems with it. One is it’s difficult to administer. Right? You have to put it in bait. And that means leaving it out. And so, it’s hard to verify that a coyote got it. It’s hard to verify that the right coyote got it. You know, as they move as family groups, you put a medicated bait out, any one of the family members may be the one that ends up taking it, not necessarily the one that you’re trying to treat.

 

Chris Jackson [01:23:09] And then if you do get a successful dosage, you have to do a follow-up dose to get any mites that will be of the second generation. Right? So, the mites you kill with the dosage have laid eggs. Those eggs will survive the medication. And when they hatch out, they have to be treated before they get a chance to reproduce.

 

Chris Jackson [01:23:34] So, you’ve got to treat this coyote multiple times, you know, maybe three times to get good, good coverage. So, ivermectin is generally available. You can order it off the Internet. And so, in essence, it’s good. It’s available. You can get your hands on it. You can try to do it.

 

Chris Jackson [01:23:53] It’s difficult to get it administered. It’s also dangerous if you overdose. Right? You can overdose the coyote and do more damage than good. So, it’s a non-optimal solution. It’s very hard. It works in some … it’s feasible in some very limited circumstances. Right? Like if you had a juvenile coyote that was coming to your front door or something on the regular and just by itself, an orphaned coyote or something like that, you might have a chance.

 

Chris Jackson [01:24:26] So, there’s another medicine called Bravecto, and it’s much more capable, but it requires a prescription. So, you can’t get your hands on it easily. Right? You’ve got to recruit the help of a veterinarian. And there’s generally a professional reluctance to get involved in that sort of thing. That’s understandable. Right?

 

Chris Jackson [01:24:47] But Bravecto works much better. It’s effective for three months long. So, you can dose a coyote with Bravecto, and they’ll be covered through the full lifecycle of the mange mite. And so, one dose will usually do the trick. And it’s also more forgiving, in terms of if you overdose the animal, it’s not nearly as serious as it would be if you did with ivermectin.

 

Chris Jackson [01:25:12] But, either way, it’s a tough nut to crack. And it’s and even no matter which one of those two medicines you use, the outcomes are kind of iffy, you know, because for various reasons. Right? Mange is always out in the environment. So, you could cure them and they could go right back out and catch it again. They either catch it from their other family members that you didn’t get a chance to cure, or maybe from some coyotes that are transitioning through, or just, you know, maybe they get back in the bed that they were in just a few weeks earlier and pick it up again, you know.

 

Chris Jackson [01:25:48] So, it’s very hard to have success, but it is a horrible disease. And I feel for these coyotes. I wish there was something that could be done and maybe, maybe in the future, maybe, you know, I try to imagine ways that you could do something about this. And any kind of program sponsored by the city or the state would be prohibitively expensive, I’m sure. But I think this is something that maybe A.I. might be able to help with someday. Right?

 

Chris Jackson [01:26:20] And when I say that, I might go off the deep end here a little bit. So, bear with me. But you know, they’re bringing to market now these trail cameras that are equipped with A.I. technology. And what it does, is it allows you to, in theory anyway, to tell the camera, hey, I only want pictures of this kind of animal, you know. So, even if a raccoon triggers this camera with its motion, I want you to look at it, and if it’s not a deer, don’t take the picture, you know.

 

Chris Jackson [01:26:50] And so they are marketing cameras that do that now. And that’s pretty cool.

 

Chris Jackson [01:26:56] I could imagine a dosing machine, a bait station, that might operate in a similar way, leveraging A.I. And something like that where, you know, you got some smart designer, you might be able to figure out a way to get medication to coyotes on the regular that way and solve that mange problem.

 

Chris Jackson [01:27:20] But it’s just a tough nut to crack and it’s hard to see it in these poor animals. Have you ever seen one with mange?

 

David Todd [01:27:26] I have. Yes. We had one in our neighborhood. And it’s just pitiful. It’s pathetic.

 

Chris Jackson [01:27:33] It’s terrible to watch. It’s a slow painful death.

 

David Todd [01:27:38] Well, let’s talk about attitudes towards coyotes. And, you know, it’s clear that that sometimes they really, as you say, sort of pull your heartstrings. And then on the other pole, there are people that feel real aggressive towards coyotes. And I was wondering if you could talk about, you know, the people you’ve met and how they respond to coyotes, whether it’s in an antagonistic way or maybe a more friendly kind of approach?

 

Chris Jackson [01:28:08] Sure. Well, of course, I’ve encountered the entire, the whole spectrum. You know, there’s people that, like I said before, only see them as vermin and want them eradicated. That’s their automatic response to them. And there’s other people that absolutely love coyotes, that, you know, just see them as a wonderful, intriguing animal.

 

Chris Jackson [01:28:28] And then there’s everybody in between. You know, a lot of folks are trying to figure out how to feel about them, you know? Yeah. You know, I would imagine for most people in DFW, it’s not a pressing issue. Right? They go about their daily lives without even knowing that the coyotes are here. A lot of people would be surprised to find out that they probably have coyotes living in their own neighborhood.

 

Chris Jackson [01:28:56] But in general, I get the sense that even people trying to figure it out are inclined to be more accepting of the situation, as time goes on, you know. I think most folks have developed a pretty good appreciation for nature and the importance of coexisting, you know. And when they learn that it’s really not that difficult, that it really doesn’t require any effort to do it in the city, you know, I think most people are pretty open to having them around these days.

 

David Todd [01:29:36] Okay.

 

David Todd [01:29:37] And you know, when you think about people’s attitudes towards coyotes, does it split pretty evenly and clearly between urban and rural folks, or is that just not a real good way to predict how people might respond?

 

Chris Jackson [01:29:59] I don’t know that that’s a good way to predict because, you know, even our rural areas around here have changed so much over the years. Right? So, and what I mean by that is that a lot of people, so you really actually have a lot of urbanites in rural areas these days – that they just retreated from the urban city to get a little more peace and quiet or whatever. So, there’s a lot of urbanites in our rural areas now. There’s a lot less farming and ranching going on out there.

 

Chris Jackson [01:30:33] But then there’s also a group of people that have moved out to these rural areas so that they can have the freedom to do some of the things that you can only do in rural areas, you know, like hunt and shoot and things of that nature. There’s some people that want to raise livestock. And, you know, so you’re going to you’re just going to experience the whole gamut of attitudes about coyotes, whether you’re in a city or in the country. You know, there’s city folks that fancy themselves as outdoors people, hunters and fishermen and things of that nature. And, you know, they have their attitudes about coyotes. And there are other folks that are environmentalists and nature lovers and they have their attitudes. And there’s just the whole gamut.

 

David Todd [01:31:22] Yes. I follow you. So, quite a range.

 

Chris Jackson [01:31:26] Yes.

 

David Todd [01:31:27] So, let’s talk about some of your efforts to educate folks about coyotes and other urban wildlife. Can you track back the history of your website, DFWUrbanWildlife.com?

 

Chris Jackson [01:31:46] Sure. Sure.

 

David Todd [01:31:47] And what was your goal?

 

Chris Jackson [01:31:49] Well, so DFW Wildlife was kind of an exercise in personal growth for me, I guess is probably the best way to put it. You know, I started it back in 2005, and it was designed as a project to, basically to indulge my interest in a few things. You know, I’m a software engineer by profession. And 2005, the Internet had been around for what, I guess, approaching ten years at that point. And I had been looking for a way to get more involved in the Internet. You know, I wanted to move my career away from desktop programming into more web-based programming. And one of the things I wanted to do is I wanted to learn how to build a website, you know?

 

Chris Jackson [01:32:42] So, the first iteration of DFWUrbanWildlife was a website that I implemented, top to bottom, myself. I wrote every, every bit of the code for it. You know, it was it was implemented in a language called PHP, and it used MYSQL database. I wrote all the code, all the SQL for it, and I did all the graphic design for it, you know.

 

Chris Jackson [01:33:07] So, that’s some of the other areas I was interested in was website development, design development, graphic design. I also wanted to explore my interest in wildlife and photography, and I wanted to write more, you know. So, DFWUrbanWildlife turned out to be a really good vehicle for all of those things.

 

Chris Jackson [01:33:33] But, you know, and so, like I said, I implemented the first version of DFWUrbanWildlife myself. I wrote it. And over I guess the first five years or so that I ran it, it evolved into something a little different.

 

Chris Jackson [01:33:50] And at that point I switched over to a WordPress site. So, in its original iteration, it was kind of like an online field guide. Later on, it became kind of a nature journal. Right? A personal nature journal. And that’s when I switched it over to WordPress. It allowed me to spend more time working on the content rather than the back end – maintaining the code and all that sort of thing. WordPress is really a pretty fantastic tool, really capable and has a lot of features.

 

Chris Jackson [01:34:31] But anyhow, that’s, that’s kind of the story of DFWUrbanWildlife. It’s just hard to imagine it’s 20 years old this year. I can’t believe those words are coming out of my mouth. But it’s been a lot of fun the whole time.

 

David Todd [01:34:46] That’s neat. That’s neat. In that, I’m curious what sort of passion drives you to write and share information about coyotes and our urban wildlife. What, what is it that I guess you want the public to learn or that you want to tell the public? Why is that important to you?

 

Chris Jackson [01:35:07] Yeah. So, I don’t consider myself an activist in that way. Right? So, if I have effect on people, that’s not my primary objective. Right? So, mostly, like I said, this was a project, an exercise in personal growth. I wanted to learn some things.

 

Chris Jackson [01:35:34] But when it came to wildlife, you know, I did want to sort through some of the things that I’d been hearing about animals. You know, that was one of my objectives. I wanted to determine for myself whether some of the things I had heard or read about were really true or not? And I wanted to be able to size up the situation myself.

 

Chris Jackson [01:36:02] You know, this has really been a voyage of discovery for me. You know, this just even the discovery of how common coyotes are in an urban and suburban environment was really eye-opening to me. But I can remember. I’ve learned so much.

 

Chris Jackson [01:36:19] You know, I can remember one of the early days, you know, just a year or so into it, I had gone out into the field to check on some trail cameras just before dusk. And I way out in the woods. And I had done my trail camera work, changed the batteries in my trail cameras. And I was coming out. That was a big job back then. Those trail cameras use D-cell batteries and they took a dozen or so. And I had several cameras out. So, I had a full backpack of batteries.

 

Chris Jackson [01:36:49] And so, I was coming out just as it was getting dark and up on the hill above me, a coyote started to howl. And then in response to that one, another one down in the creek bed started to howl behind me. And then out in front of me down in the creek bed, a coyote started to howl.

 

Chris Jackson [01:37:07] And it scared me. You know, I didn’t know about coyotes and coyote behaviors, but I sure did imagine that they were triangulating my location, you know, and that they were going to be coming for me. And I remember I was concerned enough about it. Now, at the same time, I was trying to be pragmatic about it. I didn’t expect that anything would happen. Right? Because, you know, if coyotes were inclined to attack people, that’s a newsworthy thing and you would hear about it with more regularity than we do, if that was really a problem.

 

Chris Jackson [01:37:43] Nonetheless, I was scared enough. I was concerned enough to pick up a stick and carry a stick with me the rest way back to the car. So, I had about a mile to go to get back to my car. And so, I can remember feeling nervous about that.

 

Chris Jackson [01:37:56] But anyhow, I’m not an activist. I like to put this information out there and let people judge for themselves, you know? I trust people to be able to make up their own mind. If they’re open-minded and open to the possibilities, I think they’ll get to the right place on most issues.

 

Chris Jackson [01:38:27] And it is a pleasure to share with folks, because there are quite a few people that really appreciate some of the things that I’ve done and that’s a nice feeling.

 

David Todd [01:38:36] Well, that’s actually, I think, something I was hoping to ask you about. You know, do you feel like there’s feedback? Is this information that you’re sharing out there, do you get reciprocal things that you learn about and hear about? I mean, do you have any found sort of a network of people who care and have interests in these things?

 

Chris Jackson [01:38:59] Oh, certainly. Yeah. It’s been a wonderful experience in every way, including what you’re just talking about. You know, this network of folks that I’ve been able to meet and build over the years. And this has resulted in some pretty important things.

 

Chris Jackson [01:39:21] You know I don’t know if you’re familiar with it: a few years ago, we had a mountain lion come through Dallas-Fort Worth. And that’s been one area that I’ve been interested in. Right? That’s one, that’s a good example of a situation where I’ve been told a number of stories about mountain lions and heard a bunch of reports about them being here in the city. You know, and if you take all those reports at face value then that would imply that we’ve got one of the highest population densities of mountain lions anywhere in the world right here in DFW. Right?

 

Chris Jackson [01:39:59] So, but, you know, at the same time, mountain lions being here seems completely plausible, you know, to a certain extent. You know, it seems that encountering one here is not out of the realm of what’s possible. And so, I’ve spent quite a bit of time working that problem. And people have read what I’ve written about that sort of thing. And when this report, this actual legitimate report of a mountain lion found its way onto social media, I had people out there that saw it before I did, and they reached out to me to let me know that it was going on.

 

Chris Jackson [01:40:34] And that presented the opportunity for me to get out there and investigate and actually participate in the verification that was an actual mountain lion that we had here.

 

Chris Jackson [01:40:47] Similar thing has happened just recently. Alligators in Dallas Fort Worth is another situation that has always interested me and lately I’ve kind of pursued it a little bit more. This is one of the ways that I start to learn is I’ll write an article kind of summarizing what I know about the situation here, you know.

 

Chris Jackson [01:41:10] And recently I got invited to give a brief presentation, PowerPoint slide show, to a Master Naturalist group based on that very same article. And one of the points I made in that article was that I was still puzzled about things. And all the research I’d done, I had not found any evidence that alligators were actually breeding here in north Texas, in Dallas / Fort Worth. I knew they were present here. I had plenty of evidence that they were present here, but I’d never seen any evidence that they were breeding here.

 

Chris Jackson [01:41:42] And one of the guys at the meeting raised his hand up. He goes, “You know, out at the Fort Worth Nature Center, they just made this post on their Facebook page showing that they have an active nest on the property.” And sure enough, I went and looked and they had an active nest. A video showed a female alligator protecting the nest against a raccoon trying to raid it for the eggs.

 

Chris Jackson [01:42:10] But anyhow, that’s the way it works. Right? That’s the way it works for me. I’ll throw something out. I’ll give these talks and I get feedback from the public that’s very valuable. And that totally flipped the alligator equation on its head. You know now that you know they’re breeding here, that’s an important aspect of the situation. That’s very important thing to know about the situation out here. It changes the picture in a big way, you know. So, very interesting.

 

David Todd [01:42:40] Yeah. And it’s nice that there’s sort of this communal way of learning about things.

 

David Todd [01:42:45] So, you know, we’ve talked about experiences to date. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about what you foresee for the future of the coyote, and in particular the urban coyote. Any sort of crystal ball sort of look for us?

 

Chris Jackson [01:43:05] Well, I don’t know that I see any reasons that they should change significantly. The coyotes are always going to have a certain set of challenges to living in the city. I suspect that the attitudes about them being here will continue to, I guess maybe “mature” is a way to put it. You know, I think people will generally become more accepting of it. But really, there’s really not a lot of options to that right in the city. You certainly can’t make your own attempts to eradicate them. You know, it has to be organized with the authorities.

 

Chris Jackson [01:43:46] But in general, I think people are just going to become more accepting. And, you know, that’s kind of the odd thing. It’s kind of counterintuitive, maybe it’s kind of kind of come out through our discussion here. But it actually turns out that that the urban environment is in a lot of ways good habitat for coyotes. There is this attitude, you’ll hear people express a lot that we took their land from them. They were here first.

 

Chris Jackson [01:44:13] And I get that sentiment, right, that sentiment is certainly coming from the right place. It is, it seems it’s intuitive, right? That’s what you would expect that is the situation. And certainly, development is very hard on any wild animal, right, in Texas, especially here in north Texas. We can’t build anything without bulldozing all the trees down first. Right? There’s no there’s no way to sugarcoat that. That just is as disruptive as anything you could do to a wild animal.

 

Chris Jackson [01:44:45] But, after the development is done and the neighborhood or whatever matures, the trees come in, the landscaping comes in, the small mammals come in to leverage the abundance of water and plant life and acorns or whatever, you know, the coyotes are right behind them.

 

Chris Jackson [01:45:06] And in that sense, this urban environment can be good habitat for coyotes in almost a counterintuitive sense. They do well. I think one of the things I probably should have mentioned, if I didn’t already, is that there is a school of thought, scientific studies that are showing, that again, counterintuitively, urban animals in some ways do better than their rural counterparts.

 

Chris Jackson [01:45:37] There has been evidence like, for instance, that raccoons are generally healthier, grow to be larger, have larger litters, are more populous in the city than they are in the country. Of course, I think there’s a great Nature, PBS Nature, episode that covers this about the raccoon in particular. I think in that episode, they also mention that some raccoons are suffering from some of the same things that trouble people in terms of what we eat. Right?

 

Chris Jackson [01:46:14] So, raccoons can develop tooth decay now from eating too many sweets. They can become obese from eating too many nachos out of the trash cans at the soccer field.

 

Chris Jackson [01:46:26] But in general, I think that, again, I keep harping on this as being counterintuitive, but I think what applies to raccoons applies to most of the adaptable animals in our cities – the adaptable mammals, the adaptable birds – that their urban environment is good habitat for those animals a lot of the times.

 

David Todd [01:46:48] Well, you’re very prescient because that was actually where I was hoping to go next. And that is, I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about other common urban wildlife. We focus pretty much on coyotes, but as you mentioned as well, there are deer and mountain lions even, and raccoons, of course, and squirrels and I imagine ‘possums and grackles and so on. And I was wondering if there were any insights you’d gained thinking about these other animals that we share cities and suburbs with.

 

Chris Jackson [01:47:26] Well, yes, like you said, just about any animal you can imagine finding In Texas, you can find in the cities at one time or the other, you know. Some of them, like the birds, are seasonal or can be seasonal. Right? Some of the insects, people going out for walks right now may be noticing that the monarchs are coming through, as an example.

 

Chris Jackson [01:47:54] If you look to the skies, you may see some of the migratory birds coming through, some of the bigger ones, the sandhill cranes. Maybe you might catch a migration of broad-winged hawks. The turkey vultures are migrating now. But yeah, adaptable animals do very well in urban areas.

 

Chris Jackson [01:48:20] And then, you know, you mentioned the deer and the mountain lion. So, those animals are rarer in urban areas than some of the smaller, more adaptable animals.

 

Chris Jackson [01:48:30] I think deer, with deer, you’re kind of approaching the size limit. So, they have some challenges in terms of finding the seclusion and the refuge that they need. We have a sizable population of white-tailed deer here in north Texas, which surprised some people, I think, to learn just how many we have up here. But they are much more restricted in their range than like a coyote is, for instance. So, you have to go into the bottomlands of the Trinity River, and some of the more secluded wooded areas around town, to have a chance, to have a real chance, of seeing a white-tailed deer. You know, they are around our reservoirs. Some of the lake parks have got good populations that are very tolerant of being observed.

 

Chris Jackson [01:49:21] But because of their size, they have to they have to restrict their activities to certain areas, whereas coyotes, bobcats, possums, raccoons, river otters…

 

Chris Jackson [01:49:32] Now, that’s an interesting one. We used to, when I first started doing this, our impression was that there were not very many river otters in North Texas. Over the years, I’ve come to discover that I can find river otters almost anywhere I choose to look, from our reservoirs to our cattle tanks, to creeks, to rivers, to even this little drainage ditch back on one side of our neighborhood here. Now, I’ve turned up river otters there a couple of times. So, they’ve got a good, healthy population in the city as well.

 

Chris Jackson [01:50:07] These small, adaptable animals, they do great in the city. They do very well.

 

David Todd [01:50:12] That’s fascinating. Very adaptable.

 

David Todd [01:50:15] Well, you know, it seems like there is this trend across the state of metropolitan areas spreading and then rural habitat getting more fragmented. What do you think that means for the future of wildlife conservation in the state?

 

Chris Jackson [01:50:44] You know, Texas is so big. And I think about that sort of thing a lot as I drive through the state, when I get the occasion to do so. You know, it doesn’t take long before you get, you know, outside of the city and you’re out into places where the population density is low and there’s just wide open spaces for as far as you could see.

 

Chris Jackson [01:51:13] And I wonder sometimes. I think maybe the policymakers like, for instance, on the East Coast, you know, in the Beltway where all they see is urbanization. They may not have a good feel for how much room there really is still out there.

 

Chris Jackson [01:51:30] So as far as Texas goes, you know, my impression is, is that there’s there’s plenty of room for urbanization and plenty of room to preserve our wild spaces. And it does seem like to me as the use of rural areas changes that there’s some opportunities to set some more areas aside as maybe not necessarily preserves but places that animals can make use of, you know.

 

Chris Jackson [01:52:11] And as far as the urbanization goes, most of our animals, just like I said a few minutes ago, most of our wildlife in Texas can endure the urbanization and even possibly benefit from it.

 

Chris Jackson [01:52:26] That reminds me of one of the aspects of that alligator talk that I gave. Part of that discussion was looking at the habitat that was available to them here in the city. And if you get on Google Maps and look at the Trinity River as it flows through Dallas-Fort Worth, you can see evidence of its history. Right? There’s a rich history mostly of sand and gravel mining along the Trinity River. You know, that’s where they got the gravel and the sand for the concrete and whatnot they used to build the city with.

 

Chris Jackson [01:53:07] And what’s left behind is a multitude of borrow pit lakes, swampy areas, wetlands that weren’t there before. You know, and every one of those spots is kind of guarded against human encroachment because it’s unappealing land. You know, you can’t build on it. It’s overgrown. It’s wild. It’s not any fun to go visit it for most folks. And so, it creates two things, wonderful habitat and wonderful seclusion. Right? Isolation for these animals.

 

Chris Jackson [01:53:45] So, you know, that’s another positive outcome of the human development, the development of the city that people may not immediately recognize, you know. But that’s a lot of great habitat that’s been created as a consequence of that mining.

 

David Todd [01:54:02] That’s really interesting. It’s not something that was done with intention, but it’s been really effective, nevertheless.

 

Chris Jackson [01:54:09] Yep. Yep.

 

David Todd [01:54:12] So, you’ve told us about some of the common animals that you’ve seen in the Dallas / Fort Worth area. And I think actually mentioned a couple of the rare ones, like the mountain lions. What can you tell us about some kind of unusual ones? I think you’ve witnessed whooping cranes and even bald eagles coming through. What were some of those experiences like?

 

Chris Jackson [01:54:37] Well, that’s been one of the great, great things to come along with this website project is that I have had the opportunity to make some really special observations.

 

Chris Jackson [01:54:46] The whooping crane. That’s true. Couple of years ago, we had, I think it was seven. Two different groups. A pair came up from a reintroduction effort they were doing in Louisiana. And then another group of five came up through a different route. And they all met up here in the Metroplex. And I spent quite a bit of time that summer monitoring that group. And that may be the rarest, the rarest animal, that I’ve encountered up here. That’s really special.

 

Chris Jackson [01:55:23] But there are a number of species up here that are exciting to see that you can’t just see anywhere. But some of them, some of them are regulars. You can find them every year if you know where to look.

 

Chris Jackson [01:55:35] You know, there’s this bird called the roseate spoonbill. It’s a beautiful bird. When they’re in their breeding plumage, they are a real vivid pink, scarlet color. They have this big, heavy bill that is straight. And then it has a little spatula shape at the end of it. It’s why they’re called spoonbills. Right. It looks like they’ve got two spoons at the end of their bill.

 

Chris Jackson [01:56:04] And it’s a large bird. It’s not quite as big as a whooping crane, but they’re pretty big. About as big as a, they’re about as big as these great blue herons that you see right here on the regular. Those are summertime visitors here in north Texas. There’s a couple, probably a couple of dozen that spend time in north Texas.

 

Chris Jackson [01:56:24] At the same time, there’s a bird called the wood stork. They usually start showing up at the same time as the spoonbills. There’s many more of them. I would estimate three, several hundred, 3 to 400 of them that come up here in the summertime, but they’re rarely seen. You have to know. You have to be in the right place to spot one of those at the right time.

 

Chris Jackson [01:56:47] And then, and then what else? There’re several other really exotic looking birds that are in the Metroplex that you need some luck and a little bit of serendipity to have a chance to see. But the purple gallinule comes to mind as a really beautiful bird has a very colorful plumage.

 

Chris Jackson [01:57:12] There’s a couple of kite species that that are interesting to see here. The Mississippi kite is one that everybody has become familiar with. Their population is just exploding up here in the Metroplex over the last several years.

 

Chris Jackson [01:57:25] But there’s another bird called the swallowtail kite. And that’s generally a coastal kite. They’re common in Florida. I think there’s a population of them that can be found in Arkansas on the Mississippi River. And so, what will happen is that in August when the Mississippi kites start to marshal up for their big migration down to South America, every once in a while, a swallowtail kite, probably coming down out of the Arkansas population, swinging its migration a little wide, will come through north Texas and take up with these marshaling Mississippi kites.

 

Chris Jackson [01:58:08] And so if you get lucky, you might find a big, beautiful swallowtail kite hunting dragonflies and cicadas with a kettle of Mississippi kites.

 

Chris Jackson [01:58:21] There’s been pictures of a bird called a white-tailed kite. They have been observed in North Texas on occasion.

 

Chris Jackson [01:58:28] There’s been some rare grebe species seen here. Most recently, I think the reports were coming out of White Rock Lake last winter.

 

Chris Jackson [01:58:37] There’s a bird called limpkin that has been showing up that shouldn’t be here, but has been showing up the last couple of years in various places.

 

Chris Jackson [01:58:49] The snowy owl. Have you heard anything about the snowy owl making appearances down here?

 

David Todd [01:58:54] I remember hearing about one in Rhode Island that was sort of surprising to them.

 

Chris Jackson [01:59:02] We’ve had, since I’ve started doing this website, we’ve had two instances of snowy owls coming all the way down here from their Arctic habitat. I don’t have a good explanation for why. It’s something that happens on occasion. But we had one that was photographed. It was photographed on an apartment, the ledge of an apartment patio in downtown Dallas. That was the first one. I think the first sighting of that was out at out at Lake Ray Hubbard, which you guys may or may not know about. That’s on the on the east side of Dallas.

 

Chris Jackson [01:59:42] And then the other one was just from a few years ago. And it it made its way down … it looked like it was kind of making its way down 35W through Fort Worth this time. And so, that’s a big deal when they show up here.

 

Chris Jackson [01:59:58] And then you mentioned the mountain lion. Bald eagles are not nearly as rare as we thought they were here in Dallas / Fort Worth. And they … we seem to have more and more of them every year that goes by. We even had a pair that that nested out on White Rock Lake this past season. That’s probably the most urban nesting of bald eagles that we’ve had in the Metroplex. White Rock Lake is inside the big loop here in Dallas / Fort Worth for people that don’t know it. So, it’s a small lake, one of the early reservoirs that they built here. But it’s about as urban as you can imagine.

 

Chris Jackson [02:00:43] But we have several cases where bald eagles are nesting around the Metroplex now. And then we get winter migrants down here, too. So, bald eagles are doing quite well here. They’re coming back really strong, I think. Population numbers are going up.

 

Chris Jackson [02:01:00] The mountain lion is an interesting example. I do believe that mountain lion that we confirmed a few years ago is the first confirmed sighting in Dallas / Fort Worth in over 100 years. So, that was important.

 

Chris Jackson [02:01:21] Yeah, the list is long. You know, there’s the insects.

 

David Todd [02:01:27] Well, that’s impressive. You know that you don’t have to go to, I don’t know, the Serengeti to see a real diversity of creatures.

 

David Todd [02:01:37] You know, I’m curious. When you think about cities and urban wildlife sort of mixing, what do you think urban residents can learn and enjoy from seeing these urban animals?

 

Chris Jackson [02:01:59] Well, it’s just a great opportunity to learn about nature in general. You know, you can kind of learn how nature works, you know. And one of the things that these animals have to do to be able to survive in the city is they have to be adaptable. Right? And that’s a survival mechanism that they would use whether they were in a city or whether they were out in the country. It doesn’t matter, you know.

 

Chris Jackson [02:02:29] But to be able to watch them apply it in the urban environment against unique challenges is just a great way to learn about, you know, the way the cognitive aspect of of these animals works. Right?

 

Chris Jackson [02:02:48] As a software engineer, I have an interest in that sort of thing. Right? It’s, you know, if you were pursuing A.I., for instance, you might be interested in how cognition works in animals, how they solve problems, what they have to work with and how they learn, how they adapt.

 

Chris Jackson [02:03:21] But yeah, I mean, it’s just, you know, it’s a wonderful, wonderful opportunity to learn about nature in general. And part of the reason that it’s so wonderful is because the urban wildlife, their behavior changes a little bit when they’re in urban areas. And that’s because one of the things they have to do to be comfortable here is they have to become more tolerant to the urban situation. Right?

 

Chris Jackson [02:03:53] And so, that means that often wild animals are more accessible to people and more tolerant of being observed. They’re more used to having people around. So, they’re not as inclined to flee as quickly. Some of them won’t flee at all, you know. And they’re also just more present, you know. They don’t have qualms about coming out and showing themselves.

 

Chris Jackson [02:04:26] And they’re accessible. Right? Going down to your local park and sitting on a park bench and watching the trees, watching the birds and the animals, the squirrels in the trees at the park, doesn’t require a trip cross-country, just requires a walk down the block, you know.

 

David Todd [02:04:46] Gotcha. You know, it’s interesting, kind of a paradox. I’ve read some about first encounters with wildlife 2, 300 years ago and how a lot of the wildlife was naive and they wouldn’t run and they were pretty tolerant of people being around them. And then fast forward to this really urban situation and they seem to have again grown to tolerate people, maybe for different reasons.

 

David Todd [02:05:15] So, you mentioned, you know, your interest in cognitive ability and problem-solving and how your software engineering background might have influenced some of your work with wildlife. Is there anything you’d like to add that thought?

 

Chris Jackson [02:05:35] Oh, maybe just that I haven’t figured it out, you know. But it is very interesting to me to think about how they function as automatons. Right? Like, if you were to build a robot and you wanted it to behave like a coyote, what would you have to do? How would you have to program it? And so, I probably spend more time than I should thinking about that sort of thing. But those thoughts do cross my mind on occasion, you know?

 

David Todd [02:06:00] Yeah. Got you. Well, you know something else that I think is a skill you’ve developed over the years that interfaces with wildlife, and that’s photography. And I was curious if you could talk a little bit about, you know, how you’ve learned to use a camera to document and understand animals.

 

Chris Jackson [02:06:21] Oh, yeah. That’s been, that’s been quite a journey. 100% fun. Well, there’ve been a few frustrations along the way, for sure. But it’s, you know, it’s, like I said, that was one of the targets I had when I built the website is I wanted to become more accomplished as a photographer. And I’ve had some degree of success at that. It’s debatable. I definitely can do better now than I could when I started.

 

Chris Jackson [02:06:50] I’m fascinated with the science of photography, you know, trying to understand the way the lenses and the way light works is an important part of that.

 

Chris Jackson [02:07:03] Camera technology is so good these days. There’s so much … Digital photography is what, you know, digital cameras are what made it all possible. But now they have technology that really is forgiving of your shortcomings.

 

Chris Jackson [02:07:18] You know, I carry a digital SLR with a big, big lens on it when I’m really, really serious about what I want to shoot. But they have these smaller cameras now. They’re called, I think they call them “bridge cameras” in general. And the one that I carry is a Canon model. It’s small. It’s about, you know, what a traditional film point-and-shoot camera would have been. It’s about that size. But it’s got a lens on there that is equivalent to a I think it’s a 1350-millimeter super telephoto lens. That would be a huge lens if you went out and bought one of those many thousand dollars’ worth of lens.

 

Chris Jackson [02:08:08] And so this small camera that is light, easy to carry around, I have it with me most of the time. That zoom, it’s like a magic camera. That zoom actually works. Under certain circumstances, it produces really amazing shots. Now, it’s not the SLR paired with a professional-level lens. But you can accomplish some pretty serious wildlife photography with it. And that’s usually what, that’s the camera I usually recommend to people that are just getting started because it gives them a chance to have some success without having to break the bank, you know, to get the equipment they need.

 

Chris Jackson [02:08:47] But that’s just a great example of how the technology just continues to make this more and more accessible. Because when it comes to wildlife photography, what you need is proximity to the animal. And you either have actual proximity, which is very difficult to achieve, or you have artificial proximity that you get through magnification with a lens.

 

Chris Jackson [02:09:11] And that works. That works pretty good, except that it magnifies everything, including your mistakes. Right?

 

Chris Jackson [02:09:19] But then you go on, and photography has got a whole, there’s a whole artistry involved with photography, too, that can be interesting to try to explore.

 

Chris Jackson [02:09:31] And I guess the other thing that’s worth mentioning about wildlife photography is that, you know, for me it kind of offers all the same excitement, the challenges, the thrills of hunting. You know, it offers the same type of things that are required of somebody that’s hunting with a rifle in terms of the kind of skills you have to develop, the kind of knowledge you have to develop of the animal’s habits, and things of that nature.

 

Chris Jackson [02:10:10] But the nice thing about it is it’s not destructive in its execution. Right? So, you get all the upside, all the excitement and adventure of the hunting trip, without actually having to destroy an animal in the end. Instead, you get to come away with beautiful pictures, you know, And that’s another aspect of it that I really, really, really appreciate and like.

 

David Todd [02:10:33] Yes. That’s a good insight. You come away with a picture, maybe not a pelt or a loin, but something that reminds you of the experience.

 

Chris Jackson [02:10:46] Mm hmmm.

 

David Todd [02:10:46] Well, let’s talk about those animals. We’ve just got a few more questions if you can still indulge us a little bit. I’m wondering what value you see in wildlife, and urban coyotes in particular. Some people who we’ve talked to have said, “You know, I see this, their role as a kind of a cog in this ecological system. Others have seen this as an economic driver. It brings ecotourism in. Some people say, “Oh, it’s an ethical thing. It’s just  something that feels right.” For some people, it’s almost spiritual.

 

David Todd [02:11:25] And I was wondering if you could tick off the boxes on any of those aspects or if you had other ones that draw you to animals and give them some value for you.

 

Chris Jackson [02:11:37] Yeah, that’s a good question. That is a good question. And I’m not sure I’m going to be able to answer it well, but I’ll try.

 

Chris Jackson [02:11:44] You know, I don’t see … for instance, I don’t see a real strong economic aspect to coyotes being here or not being here. You know, ecologically, I don’t have a good sense of how important they are. I suspect that, in the city, we could do without them just fine. I do know they contribute to the … there’s no way they could be here without contributing to the ecological balance here.

 

Chris Jackson [02:12:23] But, you know, that’s one thing about nature. Nature finds a way to balance itself. So, for instance, if you remove the coyotes, it may get uglier, but, you know, it may be disease that controls the population of the smaller animals, rather than the coyotes. Or maybe the bobcats and the hawks step up and manage the difference.

 

Chris Jackson [02:12:46] You know, it’s my impression that maybe coyotes are not making that big of an impact on the population of those animals anyhow, even when you combine all the urban predators – the bobcats, the raccoons on occasion, the hawks, the owls. We got everything here, you know. I just don’t know how big of an impact they’re making on that small animal population.

 

Chris Jackson [02:13:10] So, if the coyotes disappeared, would there be an ecological impact? I’m not sure there would be actually. Maybe, to some degree. So then, I don’t know.

 

Chris Jackson [02:13:23] Spiritually, I’m probably a little too pragmatic for that. I’m a little scientific, a little more scientifically minded. So, I don’t pursue a spiritual aspect of this. I try not to romanticize the situation.

 

Chris Jackson [02:13:44] So, then you start to get into the ethics of it, right? And I think you can make a really strong case that people are ethically obligated to be good stewards of the environment. You know, and that has multiple meanings, right? That means, that means a lot of things.

 

Chris Jackson [02:14:07] It means that we shouldn’t abuse and take for granted what we have, but it also means that we should remain pragmatic and realistic, too. You know, good stewardship is finding the right set of answers.

 

Chris Jackson [02:14:23] But it does seem to me like these animals deserve a chance to survive and they deserve a chance to live, if they’re not coming into conflict with us in important ways. And I think that facilitating that to the degree that we can is part of being a good steward of the environment.

 

Chris Jackson [02:14:47] And, you know, personally, for me, I guess because of my interest in wildlife, they certainly make things more interesting to me. You’ll even catch me getting dangerously close to advocating for feral hogs up here because they make these outdoor areas more interesting to me. I’m glad these animals are here. You know, I really am.

 

David Todd [02:15:15] That’s a good way to put it. Just. It adds a little spice to your day, a kind of a surprise, a little interest.

 

David Todd [02:15:22] So, you know, we were talking earlier about the coyotes that might have mange. And I got the sense that you had a couple of individual coyotes that you were concerned about that were suffering from that. And I’m wondering if that is something that you see when you think about coyotes, you know that it’s not just a population, but it is individual ones that have certain circumstances, certain diseases, certain kind of personalities or, you know, ways of coping with their world. Is that the case with you, or do you see them more as kind of fungible?

 

Chris Jackson [02:16:08] Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I see them as individuals. You know, I think one of the things that, this is, when you talk about why are you interested in animals, I’ve always found that a difficult question to answer. And I’ve been asked by many people, my kids in particular, “Why do you want to do this so much, dad?” Right? And I keep trying to think of a good answer.

 

Chris Jackson [02:16:32] And one of the one of the reasons is that animals, I think, kind of live their lives as stories. So, there’s drama and there’s intrigue and there’s obstacles and challenges and there’s perseverance and there’s courage and there’s fear. And they experience all that stuff.

 

Chris Jackson [02:16:53] I hear people question whether animals have emotions or not. And when to me, it’s abundantly clear that they do. I mean, an easy “for instance” is it’s hard to miss when an animal is angry, for instance. Right? Or feeling aggressive. Most animals are designed to communicate that feeling to whoever they’re feeling angry or aggressive towards pretty effectively. And people read that.

 

Chris Jackson [02:17:25] So, if they can feel that, then I think there’s a whole spectrum of emotions that, you know, that the emotion of anger and aggression fits on to. And if they can feel one, I don’t see why they wouldn’t be able to feel a multitude of others, you know.

 

Chris Jackson [02:17:43] And I even suspect that with animals these emotions probably feel pretty similar to the way they do for us, you know. I’m pretty sure fear feels the same, anger feels the same, apprehension feels the same. I mean, even, yeah, I even have noticed what I would characterize as pride in their offspring. There’s clearly love between a mother and their offspring and even a kind of a form of love between mated animals that mate for life.

 

Chris Jackson [02:18:20] You know, these emotions, from a scientific point of view, are just, they’re kind of irrational behaviors that have survival value. Right? So, there’s really nothing magical implied by the word emotion. It’s just a survival mechanism.

 

Chris Jackson [02:18:44] And it applies to animals the same way it would apply towards people.

 

Chris Jackson [02:18:49] Now, have I wandered too far away from the question now?

 

David Todd [02:18:53] No, that’s tremendous. It’s really interesting. A lot of stuff I hadn’t thought about. So, thank you.

 

Chris Jackson [02:19:00] Yeah, I definitely see them as individuals.

 

Chris Jackson [02:19:04] Coyotes in particular are fun because of the things they care about. You know, that’s, I think that’s part of the affinity we have with canine species, is that they care about a lot of the same things that people care about.

 

Chris Jackson [02:19:18] You know, they care about their territory. They care deeply about that. They care about knowing what’s going on. You know, we talked earlier about them stopping to investigate scent markings. That’s kind of their form of gossip, I think.

 

Chris Jackson [02:19:37] They care about each other, you know. Loyalty is important to them. They care about the family group. They care about their offspring.

 

Chris Jackson [02:19:48] I mentioned earlier that that trail camera that I had set up that recorded that litter of pups through the first month or so of their life. And part of what I recorded was the father babysitting the pups while the mom was out doing her hunting business, I guess. And he was playing with them and wrestling with them, just like I do with my own kids when they were little, you know?

 

Chris Jackson [02:20:18] Yeah, very much so: individuals.

 

David Todd [02:20:22] Okay. Well, I have been lucky to spend this time with you. I just have one more question, and that is, is there something that we’ve somehow skipped over, neglected, forgotten to pursue? Something you’d want to add before we wrap up?

 

Chris Jackson [02:20:40] Goodness gracious. I’m going to check my notes here. I know we’ve talked about a lot, right? Yeah, I mean, I guess just to sum up, especially when it comes to coyotes, but also with just any wild animal, I really like to discourage this idea of laying down blanket vilifications. There’s several animals you can probably think of where these kind of blanket vilifications get applied – you know, feral hogs, coyotes, nutria, you know, invasive animals – get these blanket vilifications applied to them.

 

Chris Jackson [02:21:31] And so, I’d like to discourage that. But that’s not to say that I’m trying to push the opposite of that. Right? Because I do believe that, you know, there are instances where animals and people come into conflict and action has to be taken. You know, you can be pragmatic about it.

 

Chris Jackson [02:21:57] And in those cases, which are generally pretty rare, I think. But when those cases do arise, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to do whatever is effective and legal and ethical to resolve the problem. Right? So, you know, you can do that. You can you can treat those situations on a case-by-case basis, without having to apply a blanket vilification. Right?

 

Chris Jackson [02:22:21] Because every animal out there has the potential to come into conflict with humans, you know. And some of them just, we’re just more inclined to think positively of than others. And that’s pretty arbitrary, you know. We can have that same kind of consideration for all the species, I think. It’s just a mindset.

 

David Todd [02:22:47] I think that’s a great note to end on.

 

Chris Jackson [02:22:49] All right.

 

David Todd [02:22:51] Thank you so much. Chris, you taught me a lot and shared some really interesting things, so I appreciate it. And more than anything else, you are super patient, so thank you. Saw us through our technical difficulties.

 

Chris Jackson [02:23:10] And I hope you got everything you needed from me today.

 

David Todd [02:23:13] Gosh. Everything and more. So, thank you so much. I’m going to try to figure out how to turn off this recording, and I definitely want to just thank you and tell you how grateful I am for the time you spent with me.

 

Chris Jackson [02:23:28] All right, David. Well, you’re very welcome. I appreciate it. I enjoyed it.

 

David Todd [02:23:32] Okay.

 

Chris Jackson [02:23:32] Take care. Okay?

 

David Todd [02:23:33] All right. You too.

 

Chris Jackson [02:23:34] All right. We’ll see you.

 

David Todd [02:23:36] Okay.