Texas Fauna Project

TRANSCRIPT

INTERVIEWEE: Froylan Hernandez

INTERVIEWER: David Todd

DATE: August 15, 2024

LOCATION: Alpine, Texas

SOURCE MEDIA: M4A, MP3 audio files

TRANSCRIPTION: Trint, David Todd

REEL: 4210

FILE: DesertBighornSheep_Hernandez_Froylan_AlpineTX_15August2024_Reel4210.mp3

 

David Todd [00:00:03] Okay. Well good afternoon.

 

David Todd [00:00:05] I am David Todd, and I have the great privilege of being here with Froylan Hernandez. And with his permission, we plan on recording this interview for research and educational work on behalf of a non-profit group called the Conservation History Association of Texas, and for a book and a website for Texas A&M University Press, and finally for an archive at the Briscoe Center for American History, which is at the University of Texas at Austin.

 

David Todd [00:00:36] And I want to emphasize that he would have all rights to use the recording as he sees fit.

 

David Todd [00:00:42] And, that’s sort of the general thrust here. And I wanted to make sure that that’s okay with Mr. Hernandez.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:00:52] Good afternoon, Mr. Todd. And absolutely, I’m definitely thrilled about this opportunity, and will contribute however I can.

 

David Todd [00:01:00] Thank you. Well, it’s nice to have you involved with this. Really appreciate your participation.

 

David Todd [00:01:06] Well, let’s get started.

 

David Todd [00:01:08] It is Thursday, August 15th, and, that’s the year 2024. It’s about 4:20, in the afternoon, central time.

 

David Todd [00:01:19] And my name, as I said, is David Todd. I’m representing the Conservation History Association of Texas, and I’m in Austin, and we’re conducting a remote interview with Froylan Hernandez, who is based, as I understand it, in the Alpine, Texas area. Is that correct?

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:01:39] That’s correct. Yeah, that is correct.

 

David Todd [00:01:41] Good. All right. Well, Mr. Hernandez is a wildlife biologist with Texas Parks and Wildlife, where he’s worked since 2005. He serves as its Desert Bighorn Sheep Program leader, and he’s been in that position since 2011. Before that, he was a research associate at Caesar Kleberg Wildlife Research Institute and worked as a wildlife research technician at Texas A&M University. And he also worked for the US Fish and Wildlife Service.

 

David Todd [00:02:10] Prior to his wildlife career, he served as an infantry squad leader in the U.S. Marine Corps and has also worked at several West Texas ranches.

 

David Todd [00:02:22] Today, we’ll be talking about Mr. Hernandez’s life and career and his conservation work to-date, and especially focus on what he can tell us about the desert bighorn sheep, about its challenges and its recovery over the past number of years.

 

David Todd [00:02:39] So, with that little preamble, I wanted to again thank you for doing this and to ask you to maybe get us started here to tell us a little bit about your childhood and your early years. I understand that you grew up in the Brackettville area. And I’m curious if there were any people – parents, friends, you know, family members – that might have encouraged your interests in the outdoors and in wildlife. Is there any kind of, you know, origin story that you can give us there?

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:03:16] Yeah, absolutely. Again, David, thank you for having me and sharing the story. And I guess my story, but it’s probably, for me anyway, more importantly, the bighorn story.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:03:26] I do want to make a, I guess, a clarification that while I have been in this position since 2011 serving as the desert bighorn program leader, you know, I did start my Texas Parks and Wildlife career in 2005 where I was the, you know, I guess the assistant area manager and area biologist for Elephant Mountain Wildlife Management Area. So I just felt, you know, I guess, it was necessary to clarify that and maybe establish that, you know, that fact of information, bit of information.

 

David Todd [00:04:02] Thank you.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:04:02] Well, so, so, where to start? And was there anyone that influenced, I guess, my path or my career? And you know, the short answer is, “No, not really”. Well, not really in terms of becoming a wildlife biologist.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:04:23] All I was exposed to back then in my early childhood was essentially just the ranch life. My parents came over, well, they came over, you know, I guess illegally at that time. And, they found, my father found work working for a rancher. And back then, they would, you know, quote unquote, “trade” ranch hands back and forth between landowners. And so, when he first came over, he was working for a particular rancher at that time. And then, he was, you know, he was “loaned”, if you will, to go work for that landowner’s cousin. And that landowner’s cousin liked him so well that he offered him full time, just a full-time job.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:05:16] My father, being my father, whom I’m very much like in that regard in terms of loyalty, he said, “Well, my first opportunity was given, you know, by, you know, the landowner, the rancher’s name was Clay Hunt, also from the Brackettville area, a prominent family in the Brackettville area. He said I was given the opportunity first by Mr. Hunt, and so I feel I’m loyal to him. If you’re asking me to come work for you, then you need to work that out with Mr. Hunt.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:05:51] So, the gentleman that had offered him the position, or the job, to go work for him, his name was, Willard Smith, and everybody knew him as Red Smith. Also a very prominent family in the Del Rio / Brackettville area, a ranching family.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:06:07] And so, you know, they worked it out and so they said, okay, yes, he can work for you for X amount of time. But then after that time is over, then I would like to have him back.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:06:19] Well, that specified time came and went, and my father kept on saying, “All right, now we agreed to X number of months and I’m still here.” And then he says, “Yeah, yeah, I’ll take you back the next week and I’ll take you back next week.” Well, next week turned into over or nearly 50 years. You know, he just never went back to Clay Hunt. They all worked together in the same industry. But he never went back to go work for Clay Hunt, whom he started to work with, in his, I guess, initial trip here.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:06:51] So, you know, that’s essentially all I knew. We were born, you know, we were born on a ranch in between Del Rio and Quemado. It was called the Tequesquite Ranch. And that’s, that’s all I knew.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:07:08] My father recognized the importance of school. And there was times where we couldn’t get to school because the roads were washed out or, you know, just one reason or another, he couldn’t get us to school, or he couldn’t get us to the bus stop to go to school.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:07:25] So, he decided that to give us, you know, just an ample opportunity, he went ahead and resigned from being the foreman of the Tequesquite Ranch, and moved to town. And so, we lived in town maybe five years in Del Rio.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:07:44] That whole time, Red kept on insisting, “Come on back. We need you. Come on back. We need you.” And it took him maybe five years to convince him to go back, took five years to convince my father to go back.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:07:56] So, my father got us together, and he says, “Hey, you know, what do y’all think about, you know, this opportunity?”

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:08:04] And we were comfortable. I was comfortable. I was playing with the neighborhood kids. I mean, I wasn’t really interested in going back, and the only kids I had to play with was with my siblings. So I wasn’t, you know, I wasn’t too thrilled to go back to that.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:08:18] But, it was, you know, I guess the job, was in Junction, and I saw, well, you know, maybe I could make new friends Junction, go see another part of Texas, I guess. And I was young, even at that age, you know, I had that kind of spirit. Well, let’s go and find out what Junction has to offer.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:08:38] So, we did. He accepted the position, again and went. And so, we lived in Junction for several years. And then, they offered him to go manage or be the foreman for the Silver Lake Ranch. And Silver Lake Ranch is just north of Brackettville – 54,000-acre ranch. Working cattle, horses, sheep, goats. Just a typical, at that time, a typical ranching environment.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:09:12] So, we did. We went, we relocated again and went to Silver Lake, started school in Brackettville. And that’s where I ended school – in Brackettville.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:09:22] So, that’s essentially, you know, I guess in a nutshell, my upbringing.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:09:27] But through that whole time, there was no wildlife involved. There was, you know, no mentioning of that. However, I do recall seeing, every now and again, TV shows on national parks and national park rangers. And I recall, I guess it was during junior high, we had to do a book report on a particular job that you were interested in. And that’s the only thing that I had ever actually been exposed to other than just a ranching job or the ranching life. And so, that’s what I made my report on. But it wasn’t something that someone instilled in me. It was just something that popped up in my head. And I said, “This will be easy because I just saw a show on it. I’ll write it up.” And so, you know, I, I wrote it up.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:10:23] Growing up, I loved that lifestyle. Yeah, it was hard sunup-to-sundown type of work. Obviously, you’re exposed to the elements, but the lifestyle and the personal satisfaction that comes from working in such an environment was great for me. That’s kind of what I wanted to do and stay in the business of.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:10:52] But that was my upbringing.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:10:55] Not a lot of friends. Or I should say the friends that I did have, and do have, I can count on less than four fingers. And that’s probably because I wasn’t exposed to a lot. It was all … you got along with your siblings. And if you didn’t get along with your siblings, then you had no one to play with. So, it was, luckily, a lot of my closest friends are my siblings. And then outside of that, I’ve got a very, very selective, group of people I call friends.

 

David Todd [00:11:31] Okay, well, it sounds like much of early years, and actually years since then, has been outdoors. And I guess you just absorb a lot about, you know, sort of the natural world because you’re not cooped inside. Is that fair to say?

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:11:47] Yeah. You know, it was. So, I do have a natural, I guess, love for the outdoors. And I tend to do better in the outdoors, the elements. While it might be raining on you and it’s cold at the moment, you might say, “Man, it’s not cool.” But then once you’re out of that, you know, they become memories and they become fond memories. So, I do have a lot of that. Again, growing up, that’s kind of what I wanted to do.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:12:20] And, it’s kind of how I got into the profession. You know, it wasn’t by design. It was essentially by default. And what I mean by that is because I loved being a ranch hand and that lifestyle, I also wanted to stay in that. But I also recognized that to stay in that, like, well, if you stay in that lifestyle, you know, there’s likely not a lot of promise of, you know, making decent money and providing a decent life for a family.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:13:00] And so, I thought, you know, after joining the service, the military, and coming back, I went back to work on the ranch. And I fully intended to do that. But my G.I. Bill time, I felt the time to use it was running out. And I thought, I want to stay in, in the outdoors, in the ranching lifestyle. But I’ve got this opportunity. I could use my G.I. Bill. I could go get a college education in whatever it might be, and then I come back to being a ranch hand, and I’ll have that degree to fall back on if I ever have to rely on it. And so that’s essentially what I did.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:13:43] But again, recognizing that to stay in that lifestyle, you know, there’s not a lot of opportunity to provide ample means to provide for your family. But then also, if you do want to stay in the lifestyle, to own a ranch, you either need to inherit it or have money. And well, I wasn’t going to inherit anything and didn’t have money, so it became more of a “Well, okay, go to college and see what that provides. Come back. Do it, do the ranching thing for as long as you can. And if you ever decide to settle down, then you’ll start using whatever degree you have.”

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:14:18] When I did start my college education. You know, that was one of the things I met with my counselor and, he said, “Well, what do you what do you like?” And I said, “Well, I like anything outdoors.” And so, he started naming a couple of professions that were outdoors. And when he said, “wildlife”, I said, “Oh, wait a second, what’s that?”

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:14:37] So, he kind of explained to me what a wildlife biologist would be doing. And naturally they’re going to paint the prettiest picture. You’re going to be doing captures and handling animals and working with black bear and grizzlies and moose and all this, mountain goats or whatever.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:14:54] I was, “Yeah, man, that sounds like a cool job. Sign me up.”

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:14:58] Well, it just so happens that we don’t have moose here in Texas. You know, we don’t have all those species that he named that got me interested in the business. But, you know, fortunately, you know, it’s been a very, very rewarding career for me.

 

David Todd [00:15:16] That’s great. I love that there’s always a little bit of a surprise in, you know, what your future might hold.

 

David Todd [00:15:25] So, we talked a little bit about your childhood, and, you know, your family background and that life on the ranch. And, I do want to just touch on a couple of things before we get into your working life. And, first of all, I think you mentioned that there was a TV show that you saw that was about parks, national parks. And I’m curious if there were any other TV shows, movies, books, magazines that might have been around the house, anything like that that might have been important to you and sort of give you this little flicker of interest in outdoor work and biology.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:16:12] No, I can’t recall any, really. I do remember, particularly in my junior high years, I would read a lot of Louis L’Amour books. And, you know, obviously they’re all Westerns. And so, I was fully immersed in that lifestyle. But as far as something that pointed towards wildlife or a wildlife profession, I don’t recall any of that.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:16:44] Thinking back on the question that you asked if anybody influenced me along the way, and I think I can point at least one teacher, a high school teacher. And he was Mr. Foust, Mr. Charlie Foust. He was our ag teacher, shop. Right back then, it was all-inclusive – shop, ag and you name it. Mr. Foust, knew, because Brackettville is a small town, he knew my family. He knew us, my siblings, my older brothers and sisters and my younger ones.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:17:21] So, he knew my background. And you know, I don’t like to say this, but he knew I had, he knew I had potential to go on and do something beyond just being a ranch hand. And he was encouraging me to go to college when I was still in high school. He was encouraging me to go to college and get a job, or get a degree in something that was related to that.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:17:50] But back then, while I might have had the ability to go to college, I didn’t have the “want” to go to college. I saw it as a waste of money back then because, one, my parents didn’t have any, and I wasn’t about to put them through a hardship. And I wasn’t really interested in putting myself in a hardship to pay for my own schooling, if college was not something I wanted. So, I didn’t want to do something just because that was beginning to be the norm.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:18:28] And so, when he told me to find something that I was interested in and then get a degree in it. I told him, I said, “Mr. Foust, I just have no interest in going to college right now. Maybe later, but right now I don’t. I just want to, you know, make money, have a little bit.” And however little bit it might be, make money. And at that time I had just bought a pickup. And so, all I’m interested in is making my car payment. You know, money so to just charm my girlfriend. And, you know, I was just interested in living in the moment, not necessarily going to college.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:19:07] And he said, “Well, consider this. Let’s say you’re not going to college, perhaps the military might interest you. And that’ll give you time and that’ll give you money, and, you know, you’ll mature. And then once you’re done, if you don’t make it a career, once you’re done, you know, maybe then you’ll be mature enough to go to college.”

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:19:28] And he was an Army veteran. And so, I do remember him saying, vividly I remember him saying “If you join the military, in the military, you will find friends like you haven’t known before and will likely not know after.”

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:19:50] And, you know, that stuck with me. Because I had friends back then and I thought I was pretty close to them, I didn’t fully understand what he meant until I did join the service. And, you know, and, and, and I might get a little emotional. I’m not, I don’t consider myself an emotional guy. But I made some real, real, true friends in the military. I don’t know if you have a military background or not, but, you know, you wake up with the guys, you eat with the guys, you shower with the guys you go to sleep with the guys, seven days a week, 24 hours a day. And it’s for the entire year and years even.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:20:40] So, you’re kind of forced to like each other. And just the camaraderie, you know, the friendships that are built. You know, I didn’t understand what he meant until I actually experienced it. And, you know, I still maintain contact with three of those friends that I made over 40 years ago, or nearly 40 years ago. So, you know, they are lifelong friends.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:21:06] My son is in the military now. And, you know, he sends me pictures. And that was one of the things that I didn’t necessarily fear, but I did question if he was going to be able to make friends because he’s very much like me in terms of he’s got a very select group of friends. And I thought, well, he’s going to leave his high school friends here. And I told him exactly what Mr. Foust told me. I said, “You’re going to find friends.” Well, I didn’t know if he was, how he was going to interact with it.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:21:36] But fortunately he’s done it. He has sent me pictures of him and his friends. And, you know, it just, well, it softens my heart because he’s following, you know, following right in line with what I would hope he would.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:21:54] And so Mr. Foust influenced me in that decision. And that decision has had a lifelong impact on me because, again, joining the military, a lot of the things I do, a lot of the way I think, much of the way I think, is rooted in my upbringing and in the military.

 

David Todd [00:22:22] I think I get it. My grandfather was in the Navy his entire life, and I think it was very meaningful to him.

 

David Todd [00:22:35] Well, let’s talk a little bit about this launch into your work with wildlife, because it sounds like you had a really good foundation and a real base with your dad and your family and your siblings and your close circle of friends, and Mr. Foust, who sounds like he was a huge influence, and, of course, your military buddies, who are irreplaceable. So, I was wondering if you could just tell us, how you got your first position in wildlife conservation. I understood that you began work with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in 1996. Is that right?

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:23:17] That’s correct. And so, it’s interesting that you asked that, or the way you phrased it, because, you know, I don’t think that I’m in this position by design. And I say that jokingly oftentimes, but there’s a lot of truth to it, because I didn’t wake up one day and say, “I want to be a biologist, and specifically I want to be a bighorn biologist.” Every fork in the road that I’ve come across, you know, I’ve essentially flipped a coin. Heads, I’m going this way. Tails, I go that way. And whichever way it lands, that’s the direction I take. And I don’t look back. I try not to look back.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:24:02] And so how I got to be interested in wildlife is again with my college counselor, when he mentioned wildlife. “Tell me more about that.” So, I started going down that road, not knowing if I was going to like it. But I took a couple of classes and I found them interesting, the very basic wildlife introductory classes, and I found them interesting.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:24:26] And then, because this was, it was post-military, I didn’t start college till I was 27 years old. So, I want to say I had a good head on my shoulders. You know, I don’t know if I did or not. I don’t know if I got a good head on my shoulders now, but, but certainly, back then I was trying to, I guess, place every step that I took, I was trying to do it in a fashion that would benefit me at that moment. And there’s a phrase in Spanish, a quote, I guess, that says, “No dar un paso sin huarache”, which, loosely translated means, “Don’t take a step without your boots on.” You know, or else you might get thorns or whatever, but that’s essentially what it translates into.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:25:20] And so while I was at A&M, doing my undergrad and working towards a wildlife degree, I needed the benefit of getting experience in the profession that you were working towards. And so, while I had dishwashing jobs and whatnot, I was mainly in the food service industry because those were the easiest jobs to get. And all I needed was something to help me pay for college and supplement my G.I. Bill. So, I always had one or two food industry type jobs. And then the other was getting a job that was wildlife-related.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:26:01] And so fortunately, I was working as a field technician for the wildlife department while at A&M. And I was helping the grad students on multiple projects and whatnot. So, that was the beginning, I guess, of my wildlife foundation, or that foundation was beginning to be established.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:26:21] The opportunity came up to work for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. And they encouraged me to apply for the position. And because it was a temporary position, or seasonal, it was still going to require me, since it was a year-long position, it was going to require me to be there full-time, and that was going to prolong my graduation date. But again, I saw that as an opportunity to gain experience in the profession I was getting a degree in.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:26:54] The way I saw it was everybody that graduates with a wildlife degree takes the same classes, the same curriculum. You know, the same, essentially the same thing. What’s going to put me above those is if I have that, plus experience. Yes, it’ll take me a little longer, but I’m going to get that experience.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:27:13] So with that mindset, I took a break from college and went to work for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Upon completion of that, I was just a research associate, a wildlife technician, working on the Attwater’s Prairie Chicken wildlife refuge.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:27:33] And, you know, I did that. And then I went back and finished up my career. But by the time I finished up my career, you know, that wildlife foundation was pretty solid, I knew that that was the direction I wanted to go. I didn’t know what I wanted to specialize in, but I knew that that was a direction that I wanted to go.

 

David Todd [00:27:54] That’s good. That’s good. It’s nice to have some comfort and conviction that what you’re setting out to do, is going to be a good fit. You know, there are just so many choices in life.

 

David Todd [00:28:07] Well, so, my understanding is that you started with Texas Parks and Wildlife in 2005, and, and, of course, you’ve been there since, so can you tell us how that door got opened for you?

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:28:23] Well, again, and I’ll quit saying it. I guess you understand me that that’s going to be my M.O., it was my M.O. back then, and I suspect that that’s going to continue to be my M.O.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:28:38] So, well, while I was at A&M, working on my undergrad, I met a good friend of mine, Louis Harveson. He was working on his PhD, at A&M. And his project involved working with mountain lions. So, because I was working for the wildlife department, and I helped all the graduate students with their projects, you know, everybody wanted to help on the mountain lion project because it was one of those just glamorous positions or jobs, you know, working with mountain lions and handling mountain lions and those kinds of things.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:29:16] But when it came to doing some of the, more of the grunt work, you know, the veg work, the work that’s not as glamorous, he always struggled to find helpers. So, he came to me and he said, “Hey, I’ve got some field work. You want to come down and help?” “Yeah, absolutely.”

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:29:34] Again, the way I saw it was, well, it’s more towards my experience, working towards my experience. I’ve just got to increase that basis and increase my breadth of knowledge with regard to wildlife. So, so I did. I went and helped him out.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:29:55] And you know, luckily – because it was a lot of veg work – hot, south Texas, humid. You know, nobody wanted to do that work. And that’s just my nature. I tend to do the work that nobody wants to do because, I tend to excel at it. I think I excel at doing the work that nobody wants to do. And that’s probably because there’s only three of us doing the work that nobody wants to do versus a lot more.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:30:21] But, joking aside, he said, “Hey, would you like to be just a regular helping on the project? You know, you’ve showed that you’re a good worker, that you’re willing to work even with some of this less desirable, veg work. So, next time we have a project that involves actually, you know, treating lions and handling them, do you want to come?” I said, “Absolutely.”

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:30:43] So I developed a friendship, a good friendship with, with, with Louis Harveson. Once he graduated and got his first job, he got his first job as a professor here at Sul Ross. And, when I was fixing to graduate, he was trying, because it was his first job, he was trying to recruit me to come do a Master’s for him.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:31:07] But at that time, I was 30 years old, 31 maybe, I think. And I was ready to get back into the into the work force and put a little bit more money in my pocket.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:31:17] So, he was trying to recruit me and, so he says, “Froylan, are you interested in a grad project?” And I told him, “Man, Louis, I’m ready to get back to the work force, whatever job that might be, I’m just ready to earn a steady paycheck.” And he said, “Well, just hear me out. We don’t have any money and we don’t have any fleet of vehicles for you to use. You’ll be using your own vehicle, you know, and we may not have a stipend.”

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:31:45] So, he didn’t do a good job of selling it, to come do a grad position. But he says, “But you know, the countryside is beautiful. And you would be working on Elephant Mountain.” And so he said, “Just come out and check it out.” And I said, “All right, I’ll go out and check it out.” Again, that attitude of, “Well, let’s go see what else the world has to offer.”

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:32:10] And so yeah, I did. I came out. And so, I graduated in August. I graduated A&M in August. And so, in between the graduation and me coming out, a couple of weeks prior to graduation, I came out and I looked at the place and I said, “Sign me up. You know, I love it. I don’t know what’s in store. You don’t have fleet. You know, there’s nothing that you’re promising me anything. But I love it. Yeah. Sign me up. We’ll figure it out as we go along.”

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:32:45] So I did September rolls around. And that found me. I moved all my, what we call in Spanish, “Me lleve todas mis chivas,” meaning “I took all my goats, or all my belongings”, what little they were, and came to Sul Ross. So, I did. I started my Master’s here at Sul Ross. And because up until that point, most of the work that I had done was upland game related, whether it was wild turkey and primarily quail. So, he says, “Well, let’s look at you, see if we can get you a project working on quail.”

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:33:15] So we decided on working with Montezuma quail, the Mearns’s quail, on Elephant Mountain. And, you know, those animals, those critters, are pretty elusive. Really hard to trap. They’re not, they’re not your typical granivorous bird. So, you can’t just bait them and put a trap out and they walk in. You know, they do more digging for bulbs and tubers and those kinds of things. So, it was a little harder, harder to trap.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:33:41] And maybe that was the appeal or the challenge, or the appeal was the challenge. There was a challenge you couldn’t really trap and so I said, “Yeah. Let me go, try, give it a go at this thing.”

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:33:55] So my project was at Elephant Mountain, and that’s where I met the Elephant Mountain folks. And at that time, it was Clay Brewer. He was the area manager. Mike Pittman was involved, but he was up in Fort Davis. Jack Kilpatrick and those folks were all involved. Scott Laird was a biologist. So, you know, they were all involved, when I got there. I worked with them while I was at Elephant.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:34:24] And then later on, while still here at Sul Ross working for my Master’s, I did a summer internship, for Elephant Mountain. And they said, “Would you want to earn a little bit more money than what you’re earning? Just a stipend. A little stipend here at Sul Ross. Would you want to be a summer intern?” And, you know, thinking, “Hey, that’s going to help my career later on, building experience, working that network. You know, absolutely.” I took advantage of that opportunity. And so, I did a summer internship there on Elephant Mountain.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:34:57] So, that was my first, I guess, exposure to Texas Parks and Wildlife, Elephant Mountain, and I guess more importantly, the, you know, the sheep program.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:35:09] I graduated. I got a job with Caesar Kleberg. I went to work for Caesar Kleberg. And I was there for a couple of years. And then, I completely left the profession. And this is, I guess, a long-about way to get to answer your question, but I worked for Caesar Kleberg for a couple of years, and it was as a research associate and so kind of managing of the quail team that Caesar Kleberg had at the time, some of their grad students. We had field technicians. And it was a it was a ten-year quail project that they initiated at the Encino division of the King Ranch, south of Kingsville. So, I was associated to that.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:35:54] But a couple of years into the profession, I guess into the job, I kind of got disillusioned with the profession. And, you know, that was my first real exposure to hunting operations, you know, essentially feeding programs, you know, those kinds of things. And so, while they all have their place in wildlife management, it wasn’t what I had envisioned wildlife management being. I’m more of a traditionalist, or I was then and still am, more of a wildlife, traditional wildlife biologist, where you take care of the habitat, and if you do, it’ll take care of the animals on the habitat. And you can increase the capacity by doing X, Y, and Z. Yeah, you might manipulate it a little and get food plots and those kinds of things.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:36:48] But you can only, you know, buy so much time by doing those things. And so, there was a lot more involved to that.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:36:57] Again, I got a little disillusioned with the profession. And so, I completely left. I left the profession. I moved off, again I moved all my chivas out to San Antonio. I had family there. I was married. Right in that time frame, I got married and so I moved my wife and so we went up to San Antonio and, you know, took a job as a door-to-door salesman. And I didn’t think that was a job that was available. My brother-in-law, my wife’s brother, worked in it, and so he got me into that selling door-to-door. We were selling cable, Time Warner cable.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:37:43] And again, all I needed was money in my pocket. I didn’t think I would like that, but I ended up liking it. I ended up loving, loving the door-to-door sales. And I’m not a salesman by any means. But what I really loved about it was you would knock on someone’s door, they would answer, and for that brief moment, you were in their world. And I saw how different, you know, different walks of life, how they lived. I was exposed to just different types of people, different types of background.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:38:17] And for the short time that I was there, I didn’t focus on my job. And my job was obviously to sell cable. But I found it more interesting to talk to people and find out, you know, what they were about. And oftentimes I would make the sale. Sometimes I wouldn’t, but I loved it because for that brief moment of time, I was in someone else’s world and they were allowing me to come into their world. So, I fully enjoyed that.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:38:50] And then, while I was working for Time Warner Cable, I met, became a friend of mine, Camino Choy. He was also a door-to-door salesman, and he was a Venezuelan. He had been in new house construction in Florida. So he had that background, had those connections. And because we struck a friendship, he says, “Hey man, what if we start our business?”

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:39:16] And so, we did. We started a small business in new house construction. And I totally loved that. I totally loved the new house construction because it was, well, maybe it was working in the outdoors, it was sometimes harsh environments. But what I really liked about it, and it was all obviously manual labor, but what I really liked, loved about it, was you would go in in the morning and you would do whatever, however much work you could. And in the evening, when you left, you could look back and immediately see how much you had accomplished that day. And to me, that was almost instant gratification. So, you know, totally loved that I was learning a new trade.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:40:00] And so, in the meantime, I thought, you know, I could I can make a business out of this. And so, I did I started working towards that. I had my own tools, my own compressors. I mean, so I was I was already thinking, I’m going to make a business out of this.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:40:16] But it kind of went against my principles, which is we were involved with a lot of the new house construction. And at that time, the, I guess the east side of San Antonio towards La Vernia was really amping up, the north side of San Antonio, 281. I mean, there was a lot of land being cleared for new house construction. And so, you know, that went against my principles.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:40:45] So, I was struggling with it. I was fully enjoying the job and fully enjoying the door-to-door sales, but really enjoying the new house construction aspect of it. But, you know, that was always in the back of my mind.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:40:58] In fact, I remember vividly: I was on a door-to-door sales run in the west side of San Antonio, outside of 1604. And, it was the actual edge of town. We were in a new apartment complex, and I was knocking on doors. And I remember hearing bobwhite quail calling in the background, and I look over and there was an open field. You got the mesquite and whatnot. You know, and that got me.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:41:27] You know, I mean, I’m getting goosebumps now because I remember getting goosebumps then, you know, because I had worked with bobwhites. So, I heard bobwhites calling and then I thought, “Man, maybe, you know, perhaps I should get back to that – seeing the mesquite in the background, and hearing the bobwhite quail.”

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:41:47] And clearly I didn’t think much of it other than having that moment. And I went on about my business.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:41:51] Right about that time, you know, I had totally cut ties with anybody involved here in Alpine or Elephant Mountain. And so, the position for the wildlife biologist at Elephant had come open. I wasn’t aware about it. But, you know, they started calling my brother. And my brother, you know, he’s a professor at A&M – Kingsville, also a wildlife professor at A&M – Kingsville. And so, they started calling him, “Hey, can you tell us about your brother? Can you get in contact with him? You know, we got the position, it’s coming open. We’d like for him to apply.”

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:42:31] So my brother called, “Hey, you know, they called me and they wanted to know if you’re going to play.” “Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I’ll think about it.”

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:42:38] Well, that went on for probably, you know, maybe 2 or 3 weeks. And I would get a call from him about every 4 or 5 days. “Okay. They’re calling, you know, they’re not seeing your application. What’s up? You need to call them. You need to call them.”

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:42:51] Finally, my brother, he’s younger than me. And he says, “Dude, you need to do one of two things: either call them and tell him you’re not going to apply, or apply for this thing, because I’m tired of them harassing me.”

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:43:06] And I said, “OK, I’m going to apply.” Well so he convinced me to apply. So, I applied, not thinking anything about it. You know, they did call me and they said, “Hey, you know, we’d like to interview you for the position.” I didn’t think, you know, I didn’t think anything of it. Because again, I was enjoying doing what I was doing. But, I was talked into coming to the interview.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:43:32] And, you know, I probably shouldn’t disclose it, but I’m going to go ahead and disclose it. I left. So, the interview was, I believe it was at 9 or 10 in the morning. We were living in San Antonio. It’s a six-hour drive from San Antonio to Alpine. I left at midnight from San Antonio. My brother and I left at midnight. We got here several hours later. He got a room, and I wasn’t thinking anything of it. I thought well I got all day … because for some reason in my head, my interview was in the evening.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:44:04] And that’s just to show how much interest I had in the position. I can disclose that now because, you know, I have since been hired. But I thought my interview was going to be in the afternoon, and right before I go to bed, I tell my brother, “Like, you know what? I better check to see when my interview is.” So, I look it up. And this was probably four in the morning. I look it up and like, “Oh man, the interview is at nine!”.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:44:29] And I hadn’t pressed my clothes. I hadn’t any things ready. So, here I am at five in the morning trying to press my clothes, get ready, fumble through notes, to go for the interview.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:44:41] And while that comes across as being unprepared, because it is, I share that to illustrate that I wasn’t really ready to come back to the wildlife profession because I was fully enjoying what I was doing. But, by the grace of God, you know, I must have done well at the interview or perhaps the others did poorly, you know, one of the two happened, and I was offered the position. So, you know, thankfully, I accepted and 14, 15 years later, you know, or I guess 20 years later, here I am.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:45:25] That was a long, long story to your question.

 

David Todd [00:45:30] No, it’s interesting, because there are some people who know what they want at age six and everything is just another step towards that dream. And then other people,it’s a coincidental, you know, ad hoc thing that they maybe just didn’t plan. But it’s a good fit nevertheless. And maybe you’re more in that that latter camp.

 

David Todd [00:45:55] Well, so let’s…

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:45:59] Go ahead. Go ahead. Oh, I don’t want to sabotage the conversation. Go ahead.

 

David Todd [00:46:05] No, not at all. I just wanted to say I understand.

 

David Todd [00:46:09] And maybe this is a good window to talk about this job that you did end up getting, after that interview. So, let’s talk about bighorn sheep. What was your first encounter with the bighorn? When was the first time you saw one, either in captivity or in the wild?

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:46:36] Well. So interesting that you say that and I’ll try and keep it short this time. But my first exposure was when I was working on my Master’s on Elephant Mountain. It just so happens that the Mearns’s quail or Montezuma quail that I was working with, you know, they occur primarily on top and on some of the slopes of Elephant Mountain. And so, that’s where I spent a lot of my time up on top.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:47:03] Coincidentally, that’s also where the bighorns are. But I was given strict orders back then not to interfere with the bighorns. In fact, on my trip up there, Clay Brewer, who was the area manager at the time, he took me up there and he said, “Look,” Brewer, dear friend of mine, took me up there and he said, “Look, you can do your research from…”, you know, and he kind of delineated the areas that I could walk in. And he says, “From this point forward, you don’t mess with, you don’t go to the south side. You don’t go messing on the slopes.” He says, “This is a specific area you’re working with because those areas are designated bighorn areas. And so, we don’t allow anyone going on there.”

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:47:51] And I remember on the drive down, he said, “Y’all are the first group of graduate students that we are allowing back on to Elephant Mountain,” because prior to that, there’s been, you know, there had been some mishaps. And so, several years went by that there was no research allowed on Elephant Mountain because they had misused the area. And so, anyway, we were the first group, or I was one of the first person to be allowed to go back onto Elephant Mountain for research.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:48:19] And so, I remember vividly, and I share that story all the time that on the drive down, he stopped the pickup because it’s a pretty steep road up to the top, and on the way down he stopped the pickup, and he was explaining to me the do’s and don’ts, and he stops and he looks over and he says, “You know, you’re the first group of grad students that we allow back onto Elephant Mountain.” And he says, “Don’t ‘beep’ it up.” And I say, “Yes, sir. Understood.”

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:48:49] And that’s what I really loved about Clay. He’s a no-nonsense guy. He’ll shoot you straight because that’s exactly how I operate. I try not to beat around the bush. I don’t, you know, I prefer directness because that’s how I am. So, we developed this great friendship.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:49:05] So, that was my first exposure to Elephant. But it was also, as well to the sheep. But it was also somewhat of, I don’t know how to put this, but it wasn’t a very welcoming invitation to be part of the sheep program because, you know, they were very protective, and I understand it now. Back then, I didn’t. I understand it now, but it was very, very protective. They were very protective of the bighorns.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:49:35] That’s when they were just barely getting established. It had only been, you know, 15 years since they been brought to Elephant. They were growing the herd.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:49:44] So, they were being very protective and didn’t allow just anyone to go onto the property and then see the sheep.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:49:51] You know, that kind of turned me off in terms of, “Yeah, I don’t want to be part of your group or your club if you don’t want me, if you’re not inviting me to be part of the part of the club.” So, you know, it wasn’t a very warm welcome, back then when I was doing a Master’s.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:50:08] And then, once I got hired on, the job entailed, obviously, working with bighorns at a closer level. But even then, some of the projects, because I was the new guy on the block, you know, I was given the less important jobs and not necessarily dealing hands-on with the bighorn. And so again, that attitude, “I don’t really part of your part of your group.”

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:50:37] But you know, that attitude was taken because of lack of understanding. I didn’t understand what it takes to manage the herd, to be protective, you know, those kinds of things.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:50:50] So my first exposure, I guess I could say that it wasn’t very welcoming, but, you know, once I understood it, then it all clicked. And, you know, I was bitten with what people call the “sheep bug”. And so, you know, so I had it when I was at Elephant as the assistant manager and area biologist.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:51:11] But then his position, the program leader position, became open. And, you know, that’s the position that I was looking for when I was at Elephant. Well, I was looking for one of two things. I was looking for either this position, the program leader position to open up, or the project leader, the project leader being the manager that oversees all three Wildlife Management Areas out here. So, I was looking for one of those two to open, so that I could, you know, maybe take a shot at it.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:51:42] It just so happened that the desert bighorn sheep program leader position came open first. You know, I applied and was fortunate enough to get selected and so again, here now, here I am fully immersed in the sheep program.

 

David Todd [00:51:59] All right. Well. Well, tell us about the view from the total immersion in the sheep program, now that you’ve been bitten by the sheep bug. Could you give us kind of the basic outline of the life history of a bighorn sheep, and maybe the ecological niche that it fills?

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:52:24] Absolutely. I’ll start by the ecological niche that it fills.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:52:30] As you and maybe the listeners might understand or suspect, we all have a place and whatever niche you fill, and whether you’re looking at it from a human perspective or a wildlife perspective. So, everyone has a role.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:52:47] And so, bighorns, similarly, they had played a very important role in the West Texas niche, or the Trans-Pecos niche. And so, they were doing quite well back in the late 1800s. It’s estimated that there were probably 1500 animals and likely a lot more. You know, early records show that they occurred in about 15, 16 prominent mountain ranges in West Texas. So, they were doing well. They were doing quite well.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:53:24] And then the introduction of domestic sheep and goats into the area and onto bighorn habitat, essentially started their demise. The coming of the railroad through the West Texas landscape. Unregulated hunting, although there were regulations in place, you know, there was unregulated hunting, meaning people would hunt them essentially at will. And so, they were hunting essentially at will as the railroad was coming through. They were using that as a food source and then other things, but also bighorn using that as a source.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:54:07] But then again, as I mentioned, with the introduction of domestic sheep and goats, you know, into the bighorn habitat, and not necessarily domestic sheep and goats, because they do present a challenge in terms of competition for resources, for food items, for space. But one thing that, that they hadn’t been exposed to was the bacteria that are carried by the domestic sheep and goats that bighorns had not been exposed to and obviously hadn’t developed immunities for. And so, that brought about, you know, that was essentially the nail in the coffin.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:54:43] And, you know, late 1800s, 1500 levels, they started to dwindle with every event, with the railroad, with the introduction of domestic sheep, netwire fencing associated to domestic sheep, it started their untimely demise or decline.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:55:03] And by the early 1960s, all the native Texas desert bighorns had gone or they were extirpated. They were gone from the landscape. I believe it’s October of ’61 that the last native desert bighorn ram was spotted in the Sierra Diablos north of Van Horn.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:55:27] Restoration efforts began prior to that with the establishment of the Sierra Diablo as a, I guess, as the last sanctuary for desert bighorns, with the help of conservation partners such as the Texas Bighorn Society.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:55:43] There was propagation facilities constructed in several places. The most prominent one is the one in the Sierra Diablo Propagation Facility, or what we call the Sierra Diablo pens.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:55:56] And so, captive propagation was attempted and sheep from Arizona, from Nevada, from Utah, Arizona, Baja California in Mexico. They were all, bighorns were brought as captives, hopefully to grow them in the captive setting and from there, do subsequent releases in hopes of restoring these mountain ranges.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:56:30] So the captive propagation facilities, they had some there in the Sierra Diablos, in the Chillicote Ranch, on the Sierra Viaje rim. They had some, an enclosure at Black Gap Wildlife Management Area, also in the Beech Mountains on the Beech Mountain Ranch. So, there were several enclosures focused on captive propagation.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:56:51] But as you might suspect, you know, there’s lots of challenges with captive propagation. And one is obviously that they’re very labor-intensive, the manpower that goes with it. You have to look after the animals, you know, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. So, there’s a lot of work that goes into captive propagation.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:57:17] And while there were releases made from those captive propagations, and that’s how some of these herds got started. That’s how the Elephant Mountain herd got started was sheep from the pens from the Sierra Diablos.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:57:30] The decision was made to turn all animals loose and see, you know, and, I guess, allow them to fend for themselves. Fortunately, although it took a while, fortunately, you know, they did take hold in the Sierra Diablos and eventually in the Beech and the Baylor Mountains. And that became the stronghold of the modern-day bighorn population that we have now.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:57:55] But from there, other populations were started in the Van Horn Mountains, obviously the one at Black Gap, at Sierra Diablos, Nine Point Mesa, both the Seals Ranch and the Big Bend Ranch. So, there were several mountain ranges that benefited from these propagation facilities.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:58:15] And so that’s essentially where we are now is we have been able to establish or restore bighorns to about 11 of those historical 17 mountain ranges.

 

David Todd [00:58:31] Okay. That’s great. Well, fantastic introduction to kind of the demise and then these efforts to recover them.

 

David Todd [00:58:42] You know, what would be really good is maybe just to get a little background about the animal. I mean, I’ve never seen one. Never. You know, other than in a zoo and for a remote animal like that, I think it’d be nice to get an introduction to just, you know, their life history and sort of a typical day in the life of a bighorn. What does it eat? You know, how is it mate? How does it find shelter? You know, what sort of habitat does it prefer? All those things to be really useful to know. Maybe you can share some of that with us.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:59:23] Well, absolutely. And I’ll try to do my best to explain most of what you just described.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:59:30] And so they’re medium-sized animals, essentially. And, a female or a ewe can weigh up to 110, maybe 120 pounds, maybe a little more. But that’s about an average.

 

Froylan Hernandez [00:59:47] Their horns is what’s called sickle horns. And so, their horns just come up out of their heads. They’re not your typical what you would consider when people describe big horns. You know, that’s not what you envision, but they’re smaller horned animal. Sickle horns: they go up from their head and kind of just point back a little bit. Pretty thin horns.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:00:10] The male or a ram, as the name implies, they’re a lot bigger, a lot more mass. You know, a big animal, a ram, probably, you know, ranges from the 130s, maybe 150, range, possibly a little more. But they’re not as big as the Rocky Mountain bighorns, their cousin, the Rocky Mountain bighorns. Now, those animals are quite a bit bigger and heavier, but these are medium-sized animals.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:00:42] They’ve got one distinguishing characteristic is, you know, they’ve got a white rump and you can, from a distance, and once you train your eye to search for that, they become rather easy to see, and especially if you’re using optics when you look for that very characteristic white rump. You know, so they’re medium-sized animals.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:01:04] The typical day they just mill around. They can shade up as some animals do – whether deer, livestock – they shade up. But oftentimes you’ll see them foraging around in the heat of the day. Or even in the heat of the day, you’ll see them basking on top of a rock. So, you know, they’ll do those things.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:01:28] But they essentially feed throughout the day. And luckily, most all the food items or food plants that they eat, are found in their habitat. And their habitat is often, the words used to describe their habitat is “broken-up” and “rough” topography, canyons, shelves, you know, just convoluted and just that typical Chihuahuan desert, rough, rough country – cactus, cat claw, you know, those kinds of things, yuccas. And so that’s kind of essentially what their habitat looks like.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:02:11] But they need that rough, broken-up terrain for escape cover when they’re being pursued by a mountain lion or a predator, as well as for lambing. Typically, they use, they look for that rougher country because it provides more cover in terms of the terrain and escaped terrain for them to lamb in.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:02:40] They’re in gestation for about six months. They begin breeding the rut or whenever the rams begin looking for ewes, you see a little bit in July, August and then September, October, it really begins to amp up and the rams are really chasing the ewes. So, that’s the beginning of the breeding season, the rut, the breeding season. And they’ll breed.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:03:06] And then you’ll start seeing your first lambs on the ground. We’ve seen them as early as January. But typically the bulk of the lambing season is tail-end of February. And then you start seeing a lot more in March, April, May. And towards the end of May, it begins to taper off. And you’ll see some lambs in June. But the majority of the, you know, the peak lambing season is probably March through May, March, April and May would be your peak lambing months.

 

David Todd [01:03:45] What’s their favorite diet? What are they foraging on?

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:03:50] Well, they’re forging on lots of things and some, and most of it is seasonal. During the monsoon season, which is what we’re going through now, July and August, during the monsoon season, because of the increased rains, if it’s going to rain, you know, the increased rains, they bring a lot of forbs. And so, they focus more on a lot of the forbs that come out. And forbs are characterized as your broadleaf plants that generally only grow for one season. And then they die off.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:04:22] So, they’ll forage on forbs right now when they’re available, and then when they’re not, once they die off, they’ll focus on the browse plant species. And because there’s a lot more of those throughout the year, their diet consists primarily of those browse plant species.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:04:44] They do graze on grass. You know, they are a sheep. And so essentially, theoretically, they’re a grazer. But again, because we don’t have a lot of green, throughout the year, what they use most of is, you know, your succulent plants or your browse plant species. And some of your key browse plant species are, you know, ephedra, saltbush, mountain mahogany. They really love the mountain mahogany. Wright’s silktassel is also a very, very sought after “ice cream” plant, if you will.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:05:23] And then you have what we call the second and third choice plants that they’ll use them if they’re there. And during hard times, they certainly do use them, but they’re kind of like your baloney of the plant species – that they’ll be able to survive on them. Their just nutritional value is less than say of Wright’s silktassel or mountain mahogany.

 

David Todd [01:05:49] And so, what would you think is not your ice cream, but is maybe a second or third choice. What would they be looking at there?

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:05:59] Well. So yeah. So, your second-choice plants, are more, well, you know, you’ve got skunkbush, what’s called “skunkbush”, they’ll utilize that. They’ll utilize what’s called the Mormon tea or ephedra. You know, you’ll see them browsing on that. Mariola is also another browse plant that they that they’ll use. But these are, again, your second and third choice plants. And you’ll see some of that used.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:06:29] In fact, one thing we do when we’re out there and trying to evaluate the health of the habitat is we do what’s called “browse surveys” and so we’ll identify ice cream plants or your first-choice plants, and then we’ll identify second- and third-choice plants. And we’ll go around a particular first choice plant, count the number of bites on stems that we see on that. And we limit it to 20 to make the calculation simple. We’ll limited to 20 stems per plant and then we’ll come up with a use percentage or bite percentage.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:07:13] And based on that, we can tell, we can draw inferences on what the health of the habitat is. And so, the more use that you see on your second and third, your third choice plants, then that tells you that your first choice plants are likely, you know, not necessarily gone, but you, they’re not there. And so they’re being forced to use your second- and third-choice plants. And so, you know, again, that’s, that’s a health, habitat health indicator that we look at.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:07:48] Then we start planning. Okay, are there too many animals on the property? Do we need to start looking at translocating them? And what might be the health of the animal if they’re eating less nutritional plants?

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:07:59] So, again, all those things are playing in the background. But again, looking at those first-, second- and third-choice plants.

 

David Todd [01:08:08] Okay. All right. Well, that’s great.

 

David Todd [01:08:10] So, see if I can kind of summarize where we are. You give us a little bit about the ecology and life history of the bighorn and a quick kind of overview of some of the problems it’s faced.

 

David Todd [01:08:27] There were a few things I was hoping we could drill into, understand why these animals have been so scarce, and, you know, at one point were extirpated. You know, you mentioned the overhunting and the competition with the sheep and goats, both, just for the grazing and the space and the bacteria. There are a couple things I was hoping you might be able to tell us more about. For instance, I had read that, in the really early days, there were salt mines that were operated out in West Texas, and that there was some market hunting that went on to feed the people that were running those mines. Is that right?

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:09:19] Well and so I haven’t read that, but that kind of sounds in line with the early history. I’ve heard similar stories with relation to with the railroad being built and constructed throughout here, that they would use, just the abundant wildlife that was out here, not just necessarily bighorns, but that they were hunted. The animals were hunted to feed the crews that were out here. And so I don’t doubt that that might have gone on with those mines.

 

David Todd [01:09:54] Okay. All right.

 

David Todd [01:09:55] And then, when you touched on this question of the competition between these wild sheep and then the domestic goats and the tame sheep, what was the bacteria that has been a problem in this possibility of infection and them not having immunity to those new diseases?

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:10:20] So, that bacteria is what’s called mycoplasma ovipneumoniae or MOV, for short. And, you know, the domestic sheep, they’re what’s called an Old World sheep species. So, they’ve adapted to carrying this bacteria without any ill effects. And goats, domestic goats, do the same thing. They can carry, you know, carry the bacteria without any real ill effects.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:10:51] And so this bacteria is easily transmitted to the bighorns. And nine times out of ten, once that bacteria is transmitted, it’s the nail in the coffin. And it’s, nine times out of ten, it’s fatal. It causes pneumonia, infectious pneumonia in the bighorns. And, within weeks of contracting it, you know, they’re typically dead.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:11:18] And this is a problem that, that was a problem back in the ’50s, in the ’40s and ’50s when the domestics were brought in. Fortunately, we don’t have domestics in the Trans-Pecos where the bighorns occur now.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:11:35] But what is a challenge now, and it’s a challenge because of the competition in space, but also because of the bacteria, is the invasive or the exotic species that’s known as Barbary sheep or also known as aoudad. You know, they occur in every mountain in West Texas and particularly in those mountain ranges that are considered historical bighorn range. You know, there’s aoudad in those mountain ranges.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:12:04] And recent research has demonstrated, and we have detected that bacteria, that MOV bacteria, in aoudad that we’ve sampled.

 

David Todd [01:12:16] I see.

 

David Todd [01:12:17] And so, tell me … I gather the domestic sheep and goats were brought out there by the landowners and, you know, livestock handlers. But how did the aoudads get introduced to the Trans-Pecos? How did they find their way there?

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:12:36] Well, that’s an interesting question that you asked because ironically, it was Texas Parks and Wildlife that that brought them in the ’50s. And they brought them in as an additional game species for public hunting opportunities. And although it was it was Parks and Wildlife that brought them in, I don’t think anybody envisioned that the aoudad would do as well as they have. So, Parks and Wildlife had their hand in in that.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:13:10] But also, there were also some private landowner stockings and releases.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:13:16] And so, the combination of those two and the aoudad’s ability to thrive in West Texas, you know, I guess, is a problem we currently face.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:13:29] I see. So, I guess you never know how a non-native species will do in new country, you know, whether it’ll take off or just do middling well, or crash. But these aoudads have done really well. They’ve adapted well to the Trans-Pecos?

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:13:49] Well, they really have. It seems like they thrive, and well, not just the Trans-Pecos, but they thrive just about anywhere they go because you’ll see them up in the Caprock and up in the Panhandle of Texas. I know they’re doing quite well there. They do well in the Texas Hill Country. You know, they’re doing well there, so, in both the West Texas landscape, the Panhandle landscape and the Hill Country landscape – considerably different – but yet the animal is doing quite well in all three landscapes.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:14:28] So, you know, you’re correct. I don’t think anybody envisioned that they would do as well as they have, but they really have thrived.

 

David Todd [01:14:38] Okay. Well, it sounds like you’ve ticked off a bunch of the different problems that this mountain sheep has faced, you know, from, early days of hunting, to the sheep and goats, the aoudad, the railroad.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:14:58] Let’s talk a little bit about the efforts to restore these animals. I understand there was a hunting ban in the very first years, maybe around 1903, to try to protect the sheep, which I guess were already in decline. What can you tell us about those early hunting regulations?

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:15:21] Yep. Absolutely. So, hunting was prohibited in 1903. And that was a measure taken to try and hopefully save what was … they had already noticed that it was in a steep decline. They were hoping to save the sheep, the bighorns.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:15:41] Well, unfortunately then, that was not the case. Even with those early propagation / restoration efforts, you know, that was not the case. And we’re fortunate enough that through those restoration efforts, aggressive restoration efforts and people not giving up and, you know, NGO partners, the Texas Bighorn Society being supporters and not just supporters of the organization, of the agency, but also having the ability to be financial supporters and support a lot of these projects.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:16:13] Now through those efforts, Texas Parks and Wildlife was able to grow the herd to huntable populations. And so, hunting has since been reinstated. And, we were doing quite well as far as permits go. You know, the public was benefiting from these hunting permits. The landowners were benefiting from these hunting permits. And frankly, the sheep program was benefiting from these hunting programs, because the money that’s generated through these hunting programs comes back to fund a lot of these projects.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:16:55] And so, you know, it was a win-win situation because we were back up to a huntable population.

 

David Todd [01:17:04] Okay, well, we should talk some more about the hunting aspect, because I know that’s been a, you know, a real moneymaker and supporter for the restorations.

 

David Todd [01:17:15] I am curious about these early days. And before we get too far into more recent stuff, I’d like to talk about, what I understand were efforts to do predator control, in the early, I guess, in the first half of the 20th century, where I guess the goal was to control the mountain lions, thinking that maybe removing that predator, or at least reducing the pressure, on the bighorns would help them, help the mountain sheep. Is that true? Is that something that happened back then?

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:17:52] Yes, absolutely. So, there was predator control growing out of that, or what I like to call predator management. And so, there was those activities going on. Fortunately, well, it was a double-edged sword. And I say “fortunately” because back then, there was predator management or predator control for the domestic livestock. In other words, that the ranchers, they were doing their predator management activities to protect the domestic livestock.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:18:24] And so, they would go and trap mountain lions and bobcats and coyotes and whatnot. And so, indirectly, it was also benefiting sheep in terms of predation. But there was, there were efforts to protect the herd, the bighorn herd, through predator control or predator management activities.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:18:48] And that is true today. We do those activities in some of the areas that we manage, particularly if they are in a restoration phase. And, you know, if I can explain a little bit more on that. When we restore an animal or when we put an animal, in this case a bighorn, in a new area, in a new home, it takes some time to learn their new home. And so oftentimes they’re more prone to predation. And because the animals go there, they’re trying to learn their new home. They don’t know their escaped terrain, you know, their escape routes, you know, those things. You know, they become easier prey.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:19:34] And in addition to that, there’s a thing that we call “safety in numbers”, meaning when you translocate a herd, or when you translocate bighorns, say you translocated thirty animals. Well, thirty animals is not a lot for a mountain lion to get into that small herd and start, you know, picking them off.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:20:00] While they are gregarious animals and they do tend to group together, you know, the group sizes are typically 4 to 5 animals, less than ten. And so, while you have all these smaller groups, it’s easier for a mountain lion to essentially pick them off.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:20:21] When you translocate bigger groups, you know, again, the safety in numbers thing, then, you know, there’s a lot more groups, there’s a lot more eyes out there to protect themselves from the predators.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:20:34] So, when we are in a restoration phase, we do tend to implement, you know, active predator management program. And that is, again, to give the bighorns a chance to get established, to learn the country, to begin their, what we call a viable population, to begin to be productive, to stabilize. And then once you see, once we see that that population stabilized, then our predator management activities, they begin to decrease in effort. In other words, we go in and we try and take care of the predators that might be a problem in the early phases of the restoration. And then as the sheep population grows, then those predator efforts are decreased through time.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:21:25] And the overall goal is to eventually have a viable population where we don’t have to perform those predator management activities because we understand that mountain lions have to eat too, obviously. And so, the goal is for both to exist, in a somewhat balanced state without too much intervention from us.

 

David Todd [01:21:53] And so, when you’re managing these predators, are you taking them out or are you moving them? Is this, you know, lethal control or are you trapping them and moving them elsewhere?

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:22:06] Yeah. So, through the years it’s been a combination of all those things. We have trapped live mountain lions and provided them to Florida for, you know, for their puma or mountain lion, I guess in that case, just a puma restoration effort. So, we have done that.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:22:28] So, it’s a combination of things.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:22:30] Right now, we’re focused more on the lethal removal of mountain lions. However, we’re looking into the possibility of the relocation program, of capturing a live lion and translocated it to an area that’s going to provide the opportunities for it to survive. Because oftentimes, if it’s a problem lion here, and you turn it loose somewhere else, it’s going to become a problem lion there also. And when I mean a problem lion is, in reference to West Texas, if we capture a lion that preys exclusively on bighorns, and we capture it and take it to another place within the Trans-Pecos, then it’s going to likely go back to preying on bighorns.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:23:24] So, what we’re exploring now is capturing the mountain lion and translocating it to an area that’s going to provide it, you know, whatever it needs to survive, but far enough that it’s not going to want to come back to its natal range.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:23:44] Now there’s been research and there’s been documentation of mountain lions taken hundreds of miles, states away, and they, you know, they eventually make it back to their natal land.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:23:55] So, there’s challenges within that program. But again, we’re exploring that, you know, trying to be sensitive also to the mountain lion.

 

David Todd [01:24:08] Okay.

 

David Todd [01:24:09] Let’s talk about the effort to translocate, capture move, release, these desert bighorns. I think you gave a nice quick overview earlier about the effort to capture them in Utah and Nevada and Arizona and move them to Texas. But maybe you can sort of, as just a starting point, I understand that some of this effort started in the mid ’50s. Is that right? And there were meetings among various states to sort of broker a deal. Is that correct?

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:24:50] Well, that’s absolutely correct. There were lots of, there was interest. And again, the big drivers of those early stages were the folks from the Texas Bighorn Society. We, as an agency, didn’t have, I guess, the budget, if you will, to do those things. And so, we were doing what we could, within our means. And so they were instrumental in getting the early restoration efforts started.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:25:26] And so, we reached out, with their help, to other states and the states that you that you mentioned Nevada, Arizona, Utah, Baja California, Mexico. They all provided sheep for those early restorations.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:25:42] In fact, there was a hunt auctioned off. The place escapes me, but I believe it was in, I believe, it was in Nevada. But there was a hunt auctioned off in Nevada, and there was a gentleman who bought the hunt. And, when it came time to hunt, he said, “I don’t want to shoot the animal. I don’t want to shoot my ram. I want that ram to be captured.” He put it on a plane, and he brought, and they flew it down and they flew it down to Texas. So, that was his contribution to the early restoration phase.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:26:22] So, there’s a lot of examples, like that, where people just, you know, out of the kindness of their heart, and they wanted to see the bighorns back in Texas. There’s a lot of stories like that that, that people did that were about going beyond to make it happen.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:26:41] But it was a collaboration with, with all the states. The state that provided the most sheep was definitely Nevada. They provided just the most sheep for our efforts.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:26:54] But again, all the other states were instrumental in those early beginnings.

 

David Todd [01:27:00] Well, and so, can you talk to us a little bit about the mechanics of capturing one of the sheep because it sounds like they’re not nearby and they’re not slow-moving, and, you know, they’re not in really accessible places even. How is it done? What kind of tools do you use, you know, what kind of manpower do you need?

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:27:27] Yeah, that’s a great question. Because, you know, it’s evolved through time. And then I’ll begin with some of, I guess, the early methods that were employed, some of the early methods that were employed. And there’s video of that, some of the early methods that were employed to bring the sheep to Texas.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:27:47] You know, there was waterholes that were essentially, you know, kind of fenced off. And as the bighorns were coming down to water and the gates were shut on those waterholes. But then you still have to catch them. And so, there’s video of people, you know, roping them. In fact, there’s a video of a guy in his underwear, you know, wrestling a bighorn. What he was doing in his underwear, one can only imagine. But there’s video of that, of those early efforts. And so, they had that.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:28:23] They also used what’s called the drop net. They would either bait the area, or bait an area close to a waterhole. And as the animals, as the bighorns came through, and they came under the drop net and were eating on whatever was baited, the net was dropped. And so, we had a lot of, they had a lot of hands, and they would go and handle the animals and process them and put them into transport boxes.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:28:50] But that’s very, very labor-intensive, because there has to be a work force present when that happens. And so, they have to be present, you know, at the time that it happens and you have to pattern the animal coming in. You know, it’s just, there’s a lot of work that’s involved to it. And it’s very, very labor-intensive and time-consuming.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:29:11] So, those were some of the, some of the early methods that were used.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:29:18] It has now evolved. Well, so there’s others that’s called the drive net, where you get and you drive the bighorns into a net, or into an area into a pen, and you work them then, and put them in transport boxes. But again, there’s a lot of manpower that goes behind it – you know, again, labor-intensive.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:29:41] So, so those are those methods. And to some degree, those methods are still used.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:29:47] But I guess what’s been the most effective now is what’s called the helicopter and net gun method. And that, you know, the best I describe it, is you have a capture crew in a helicopter flying around low, in search of the bighorns or any animal that they’re trying to capture. But in this case, bighorns. So, they fly around and the crew consists of obviously a pilot and then a gunner. And the gun is essentially kind of like a very short gun, a rifle, that shoots out a net onto the animal. So, you got a gunner. And then you got the muggers in the helicopter.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:30:32] So, you’re flying around. They encounter a bighorn or an encounter animal. They position the animal to where it’s the safest place for the animal. And then they fire the net, while they’re still hovering or flying and the animals running, they’ll fire the net onto the animal. Now, the animal gets entangled up in the net.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:30:52] They drop the mugger. He’ll get off, untangle the animal, put a blindfold on it so to minimize the stress. They’ll hobble it. And then they’ll put him in what we call a sling bag. And then they’ll, the helicopter will come back and latch onto the sling bag, and then they’ll sling the animal back to the area, wherever they’re going to get processed.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:31:18] And oftentimes they’ll sling 3 or 4 animals at a time. Because you go and you capture an animal, and then the helicopter crew, the capture crew, moves on to another one, captures another animal, goes on to another one, captures another animal. And by that time, the animal that was first caught, a helicopter will come back and pick up the sling. They’ll pick up the slinged animal, go to the second animal that was caught. They’ll pick it up and then go to the third animal that was caught, will pick up. And so, they’ll sling multiple animals in one sling and they’ll bring them down to the processing station.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:31:53] At the processing station, we collect all the tissue samples, collars, you know, everything – body temperatures, body conditions. Overlook the animal, check the health of the animal, you know, just those kinds of things.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:32:04] And once we get the thumbs up, then we’ll put them into the transport trailer and then and await transport to wherever it’s going to take.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:32:14] The whole time, the welfare of the animal is a priority. And so, if the animal comes up or banged up, or has some, some health issues, then we got veterinarians on staff that will address whatever issue it might have, and then we’ll put the animal in the transport, in a transport trailer.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:32:37] If we’re not done with the process, and the animal’s internal body temperature is hot, again, because, animal welfare is a priority, if we’re not through with the processing, we’re not through with the tissue collection process. We’ll seize whatever it is, doctor it up to hopefully get it back to what internal temperature it needs to be. And typically, their internal temperatures, about 99.1, point three. That’s about average. We’ll try and get it back to that. And then, we’ll put them on the transport trailer.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:33:11] So again, there’s a lot of animal welfare that goes into the planning to make sure that, we’re not, you know, that we’re minimizing, I guess, the stress to the animal.

 

David Todd [01:33:23] So, you mentioned tissue sampling. What are you looking for? And how do you take a tissue sample?

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:33:31] So, a tissue sample depends on the goal of what you might be looking for. But oftentimes it’s a baseline that we try and establish – a baseline in case in the future we can always go back and have a starting point for a disease event, for disease monitoring and surveillance purposes. And so, we look for pathogens that are detrimental, pathogens or bacteria that are detrimental to bighorn. We look for external parasites. We look for internal parasites because we take fecal samples, and so we look for internal parasites. We’ll draw blood to see what other pathogens or bacterias they might have been exposed to. We look at their levels – iron levels, magnesium levels, you know, those kinds of things. We will take a DNA sample also, and we’ll bank that for DNA and genetic purposes.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:34:36] So, there’s lots of samples – biological tissue samples – that are collected that help us determine the health of the herd at that time. Plus, it also allows us to look into the past of that animal, and might give us insights into, you know, what the genes might be doing in any particular area, whether they’re going through a, what’s called a “genetic bottleneck”. If there’s certainly genetic variability still in the herd, you know, just a whole host of things that we look into, because the way we look at it is that it’s likely the one and only time you’ll ever have that wild animal in hand. And so, we try and learn as much as we can, while we have it in hand.

 

David Todd [01:35:25] I see. So, it’s just your one snapshot and you probably are taking all kinds of samples. You’re not exactly sure what you’ll use it for later, but it’s nice to have it banked. Is that right?

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:35:35] Well yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So, we do have, again, we do have a goal. We’ll take tonsil swabs and nasal swabs and so that’ll tell us if that particular animal is infected with any bacteria. And the bacteria that we’re concerned with right now is, again, that MOV, or mycoplasma ovipneumonia, that causes pneumonia. And so, we’re looking, you know, we’re looking at things, you know, in that snapshot in time. If that animal does come back positive for that bacteria, thankfully we haven’t had that happen yet, but if that animal was to come back positive for that bacteria, then we would be faced with a decision to either euthanize it because it is carrying that bacteria, and so that we don’t run the risk of that animal spreading it to others, to other naive animals. We would have to either euthanize it or think about possibly doctoring it up and getting it back to a healthy state.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:36:42] However, that comes with its own set of challenges because now you need to put the animal in quarantine. There’s really not a lot of things, a lot of vaccines, a lot of medication out there, to help a wild setting or a wild sheep to overcome it.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:36:59] And so, while there’s research going on on that front, there’s still a lot of unknowns. So, lots of challenges with that.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:37:11] But yes, you’re right, it’s a snapshot in time. And we try and collect as much as we can.

 

David Todd [01:37:17] Okay. Well, I know you’re giving, like, a quick overview or something that’s really complicated, but maybe you can just move on to the next step. So, you’ve collected these sheep and then, I guess, is the next point to try to take them to be propagated, or do you just take them to immediately release them into the wild?

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:37:45] So, right now, so we’ve done, in the past, in the recent past, within the last ten years, what we’ve done, we’ve done a little bit of both. And it’s not necessarily propagating as it is. So, we’ve tried. So, let me let me back up.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:38:01] So, there’s two approaches. And one is what’s called the hard release, H-A-R-D. The hard release is where you just put the animals, after you process them, you put them in a holding trailer, transport them to the release site, and then just open the gates and let them out. And so that’s what’s called a hard release.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:38:25] The other thing that we’ve tried is what’s called the soft release. And that soft release is you put it in an enclosure or exclosure for a predetermined amount of time. Let them settle down. And the thought is that they settle down and get acclimated to their new home. And then you open, essentially open the gates and let them infiltrate out on their own.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:38:51] And so, we’ve attempted both of those strategies, you know, in past releases. The one that we’re doing, or that we’re planning for in October, is going to be a hard release. In other words, put them in the gate, take them to the Franklin Mountains, open the gates of the trailers, and then let them out on their own.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:39:18] We haven’t attempted captive propagational facilities since the sheep were turned back in the ’90s, turned out of the propagation facilities back in the ’90s. And we haven’t done we haven’t done that.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:39:33] But again, we have put them in those exclosures. And they’re not necessarily propagation facilities as much as they are just temporary holding facilities to let them slow down, or settle down, and then open the gates and let them go out on their own. And it’s typically, you know, a couple of weeks, up to a month at most that we’ve done that.

 

David Todd [01:39:59] Okay. So, it sounds like, these sheep are at a point where they’re pretty self-sufficient. And, you know, whether it’s a soft release or a hard release, they’re out in the open landscape. And I know that’s a pretty, as I think you said earlier, kind of broken country, rough country, arid. I’m curious what you do to support them while they’re out there. I mean, I’ve heard about these water guzzlers, and I’d love to hear about that, but there may be other things that you do to try to make sure that they’re successful once they’ve gone through a translocation and then a release.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:40:44] Yeah, I’m glad you asked that because it hits on a topic that we talked a little bit earlier about – the trapping and the predator management program. And so, one of the things that we do, when we look at a restoration site and we evaluate it. And so, we evaluate essentially the presence of mountain lions. And so, what we do in areas that we suspect that there might be increased predation going on, once we turn those sheep out, or once we release the sheep, prior to releasing the bighorns, we go and prepare the site.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:41:25] In other words, we perform predator management activities prior to releasing the bighorns to ensure that when they get there, to their new home, you know, that’s one thing less that they have to essentially worry about. But, naturally, we don’t get all the mountain lions. And so, predation still goes on while they’re there.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:41:47] In fact, oftentimes in past research, our research, shows that predation is probably the highest, I guess, reason for mortality once you release animals, because they’re not used to that country. They don’t know the escape terrain. And so oftentimes, you know, predation is one of the highest factors that influences or limits the population in a newly established population.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:42:18] So again, we do we do that to prepare.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:42:20] But then also we do construct those water guzzlers that you mentioned.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:42:27] And essentially what a water guzzler is: there’s several types, but the ones we deploy the most, or construct the most, is what we call a conventional water guzzler. And the best way I can describe it is it’s an inverted roof, a tin roof, that catches water, rainwater. It funnels it down, or channels it down, to a gutter, again, because it’s an inverted roof. And so, in the form of V, the water is funneled or channeled down to the gutter. The gutter then channels it to a storage tank.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:43:08] Typically we’ll have two storage tanks, 2500-gallon storage tanks. So, potentially, you know, 5000 gallons of supplemental water. And then from those storage tanks, we run waterlines up to troughs or drinkers.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:43:28] And so, we look at the potential release site. So again, we prep it by doing a little bit of preemptive predator management, and then we go and assess natural water sources. And if the natural water sources are lacking, then we construct those water guzzlers.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:43:55] Oftentimes, even if there are natural water sources, we construct those water guzzlers, because, as you might suspect those natural water sources or springs are often in the bottom of a drainage. And especially out here in the desert, that water source, you got increased brush canopy. And so, those natural water sources, those springs, they become natural ambush sites. And so, one reason we try and mitigate that is by providing those supplemental water sources at higher levels, high elevations, higher ground that’s close to, that’s nearby, that has nearby escape terrain.

 

David Todd [01:44:47] Okay.

 

David Todd [01:44:52] So, I think you mentioned earlier that the aoudads and the sheep and goats are, you know, both grazing competitors, but they’re also sources of, I guess, in the case of the domestic animals and aoudads, you know, they might be carrying these bacteria or, you know, the pneumonia. Do you all taking any steps to shoot or remove those animals where you’re doing releases?

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:45:25] Yes. And so, I’ll start off by saying that there was a time where we would say that the aoudad were a potential disease risk. And so, we figured they were, but we didn’t definitively know. And so, we started looking into that. And in several places, we would collect tissue. We would lethally remove aoudad, collect those tissue samples and then submit them to the lab. And we have detected that MOV bacteria in some of those aoudad from which we’ve collected samples, we’ve detected that MOV bacteria.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:46:12] And so, that poses a grave risk, a grave disease transmission risk, because we have sampled 13 mountain ranges within historical bighorn habitat and, granted, not all of those mountain ranges have bighorns on them. But, they’re bighorn habitat nonetheless. So, we’ve collected tissue samples from aoudad from those 13 mountain ranges. And every mountain range that we’ve sampled, every aoudad, or not every aoudad, I guess every mountain range where we’ve sampled aoudad, we have detected that MOV bacteria.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:46:54] And we have detected it in one of two ways. We’ve detected it in what’s called … so, we’ve used a PCR test, and a test that’s called an ELISA test. And the ELISA test, it runs analysis on the blood. And it’ll tell us if there’s any titers for that bacteria, and other bacteria. But the one that is specific is that MOV bacteria. And if we find those titers, then it tells us that that particular animal was at some point exposed to the bacteria. We may not know when it was exposed, but it was exposed at one time to the bacteria.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:47:36] And then the other test, which is a PCR, that test is for active bacteria in the animal, for DNA of the bacteria in the animal. And if we find that DNA, then that tells us that that animal is actively carrying that bacteria and can transmit it, actively transmit it to the bighorn.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:47:58] So we have detected both types in all of the of 13 mountain ranges. And again, so we’ve got, we’ve got that issue, that disease transmission issue.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:48:09] So, when we look at the … to answer your question, when we look at a potential release site, that has to be one of the things that’s considered or that goes into the equation, what is being done about the aoudad density of that population within a given mountain range? And we have areas … we do that on our own properties. So, we lethally remove aoudad that are on Texas Parks and Wildlife property. And we have what’s called a zero tolerance for aoudad. And so, we try and remove as many as we can and keep them at the lowest level possible on Texas Parks and Wildlife property.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:48:52] We’ve got agreements with landowners that allow us to do that in conjunction when we fly surveys, or bighorn surveys, they allow us to aerial gun and remove aoudad from those properties.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:49:06] But there’s properties that allow us to do that and have restrictions. In other words, they say “Shoot the ewes and the lambs. Don’t shoot big rams because they hunt the big rams, and so they’re supplemental income for those landowners. And so, they tell us to do that.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:49:23] So there’s things being done to keep the aoudad population densities or numbers in check.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:49:33] But the fact is there’s way too many aoudad. And there’s lots of properties that nothing’s being done. And so, we’re essentially fighting an uphill battle.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:49:46] But I will say that once you start that program, you can’t let up. Because if you let up, the work that you’ve done essentially goes to waste because those animals will come back and repopulate those areas. And so, the work that was done previously is essentially null and void.

 

David Todd [01:50:10] Gotcha.

 

David Todd [01:50:12] So, you talked about some of these restoration strategies, and I was wondering if you could sort of give us an idea of what the trends have been after all this work of, you know, trying to control the hunting and control the aoudads and control the sheep and goats and, you know, put out the guzzlers and do the translocations. You’ve done a lot. And now, I guess in the early ’60s, there were virtually no wild sheep in the state. What do you think the populations look like now? And where do you think they’re headed?

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:50:45] Well, I wish we were having this conversation four years ago, five years ago. Because up until then, man, we were sitting on a fat hog. It was, everything was peachy. You know, we were hunting the most sheep we’d ever hunted. Giving out the most permits we’d ever done. We were, we were on the rise.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:51:10] And so, about five years ago, we were really sitting pretty. At that time, the population was estimated at about 1500 animals, which was, you know, 1800 levels. And so, that was a feather in our hat. And we didn’t really boast about it. But yeah, we were we were proud of that accomplishment.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:51:37] And so, if we were having this conversation five years ago, that’s where we would be ending it.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:51:44] But since then, MOV has made it into our population, our bighorn population herds. And right now, well, so, I’ll say in 2019, we found our first MOV. We detected our first ever MOV outbreak and disease event in the Van Horn mountains, south of Van Horn. A short couple of months later, a distinct population in the spring of 2020 at Black Gap, we detected the MOV and we had an MOV disease event at the Black Gap area.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:52:23] More recently, up in the Sierra Diablos, just last August, a year ago, we detected the MOV bacteria in that population. And so, because of that, we’ve had declines in those three populations. We suspect that the nearby population of the Beech and the Baylor, because of their proximity to the Sierra Diablos, MOV has also made their influence in those populations. And, those populations have declined also. There’s others that have also declined, and we suspect, you know, the disease might be a factor also.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:53:04] So, long story short, we are sitting at half of what we were sitting at just five years ago. And so, right now, we estimate probably 6 to 700 animals for the overall Texas population, which is not a good picture. But, you know, that’s where we are.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:53:26] And we’re doing things to hopefully mitigate some of that. We’re looking at future restoration sites that become as successful and as productive as the Elephant Mountain population. And we continue our restoration efforts.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:53:44] The overall goal is to have those mountain ranges that are void of bighorns, and with the Texas population of 2000 to 2500 animals and possibly more. But that, we’re talking 15, 20 years down the road. We have to get a good handle on the aoudad populations in those mountain ranges before we can again gain full speed and restore those mountain ranges.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:54:24] Well, what are the ranges that still remain that haven’t gotten these sheep?

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:54:31] So, the ones that come to mind is the Franklins. Luckily, you know, we’ve got a project, a restoration project, scheduled for October. And our hope is that that population in the Franklin Mountains becomes as productive as Elephant Mountain has. And so, that’s going to be another root source.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:54:54] We hope that the Van Horn Mountains, which at one time we had 100 animals, is down to less than 20. You know, we hope to restore that mountain range again.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:55:06] But then some of the historical ones that that don’t have bighorns: we’re talking about the Glass Mountains, just, here in Alpine. But, you know, the challenge is not only is there lots of aoudad there, but there’s also a healthy elk population. Some of the areas is wooded. Parts of the Davis Mountains are wooded. Also healthy aoudad and elk populations.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:55:36] The Guadalupes, the southern end of the Guadalupes, we’d like to restore sheep there. The southern end of the Chisos, you know, we’d like to restore sheep there.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:55:46] Challenges in both of those mountain ranges.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:55:51] So, you know, there’s several mountain ranges, smaller mountain ranges, that are void of bighorns. You know, we’ve got the Wylies, so there’s several, again, several mountain ranges that could certainly support smaller populations of sheep. But in every one that I mentioned, there’s challenges. And then everyone that I mentioned, there’s aoudad in them.

 

David Todd [01:56:15] I see.

 

David Todd [01:56:16] Well, you’ve talked to us about some of these restoration efforts, and I mentioned that that’s part of your job, but then it sounds like you do a good deal of research and study and surveys, and I was wondering, are there some projects that you’re particularly interested in and proud of that you want to tell us about?

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:56:38] Absolutely. So a couple years back, back in 2018, again, recognizing the need for more aoudad research, we embarked on that front, because up until then, we knew aoudad were a problem and we knew we had too many of them, but we didn’t fully understand how, you know, aoudad were impacting our native ungulate species.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:57:07] And primarily, at that time, we were interested in bighorn, but then that grew into mule deer as well. And based on that research, and as most often happens when you do research, you answer a few questions, but you find out, you know, asking a lot more. And that’s a good thing because the research into some of the things that we learned from the Van Horn Mountain at that time, I know we called it the Tri-species Project because we collared bighorns, aoudad and mule deer in the Van Horn Mountains.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:57:49] And so, that project grew into what we were calling “BAM”, Bighorn, Aoudad, and Mule deer and then BAM 2.0, because it was just a continuation of the BAM. And now we’re looking into MAM, a Mule deer and Aoudad and this MOV.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:58:07] So again, that was the initiation of just a whole host of other projects. And the overall goal of those projects, (you know, there’s lots of little, intricacies of those projects), but what started it all is exactly that: how do aoudad and aoudad densities impact our native ungulate species?

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:58:32] And we’ve taken it a step further. How do they influence our native ungulate species? But then also, how do they impact the habitat, in terms of too many mouths on the habitat. And then again, we’re taking it a step further and looking at because they are a bacteria disease reservoir, how do they influence our native populations?

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:58:57] So, you know, we could spend hours on each one of those projects. But some of the things that we’re learning is that aoudad seem to displace the bighorns from higher quality habitat because they’re a bigger animal. They tend to be more aggressive. And so that in and of itself is not a good thing.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:59:21] You know, and then we’re looking at because they are aoudad reservoirs, they tend to use, they seem to use, the habitat uniformly, meaning they’ll be on the lower, the flatter country where pronghorn occur, the rolling country, where mule deer occur. They use the rougher stuff where the bighorn occurs. So, you know, they tend to use all of it uniformly. They travel back and forth.

 

Froylan Hernandez [01:59:49] In terms of bighorns, bighorns tend to stay in bighorn habitat, in the rougher country. So, you know, they’re forced to use whatever is available there. The aoudad, they’ll use the habitat. And if it becomes unusable to them, then they’ll just up and go somewhere else.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:00:10] Whereas the bighorns, they’re specialists, you know, they have to stay in the rougher stuff. And so, populations decline because the nutritional quality of the forage is no longer there. The habitat declines, those kinds of things. So, there’s lots of things going on.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:00:28] One of the things that we’re looking at more recently is the use of aerial gunning, intensive aerial gunning. And I’ll try and explain, you know, briefly, but hopefully clearly.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:00:42] In areas that you have a lot of aoudad, obviously the risk of a bacteria being transmitted is higher. If you lower the densities and you lower the densities through just aggressive aerial gunning. So, in other words, just to throw a number out there. If you have 1000 aoudad on an area and you reduced that, say by half, by 500, then you’ve also reduced that transmission potential.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:01:14] And so, we’re looking at the prevalence as those aoudad are being sampled for that MOV. And so we’re looking at prevalence, MOV prevalence, as we conduct those aerial gunning episodes. And the theory behind that is less animals, less transmission. You also are eliminating, or lethally removing, some of those infected animals. So again, less transmission potential. And so by that aggressive aerial gunning are we influencing, or can we influence, the transmission potential.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:01:54] So again, lots of things being looked at, trying to address the aoudad, the aoudad issue. And I know I didn’t answer the question, but there’s just, but again, there’s just so many things going on that it’s hard to pinpoint one particular thing.

 

David Todd [02:02:12] No, no, that’s very helpful. It sounds like you’re working on a really tough problem there.

 

David Todd [02:02:18] And I guess the work on all these problems is, of course, led by Parks and Wildlife, but you’ve got partners, I imagine, with Fish and Wildlife Service and then, a bunch of these nonprofits, you know, the Texas Bighorn Society that you’ve mentioned, Wild Sheep Foundation, Dallas Safari Club, Foundation for North American Sheep, are some of the ones I’ve heard of. And I was wondering if you can give us some insight into how these partnerships work and, you know, what benefit and also problems you might see with them.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:02:54] Yeah. Well and so, you know, partnership is a great word in this sense: because that’s what it takes. You know, we, Texas Parks and Wildlife, are charged with managing native wildlife species, but then we as an agency are often limited by budgets. And, without these conservation organizations, it’d be impossible for us to be able to do the work that we do. And so, they’re a great partner, not only because they have interest, but they also have the ability to raise funds and then donate those funds, for the betterment of sheep or betterment of wildlife.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:03:42] And so, you know, again, they’re great partners. It’s not a Parks and Wildlife story. This is a partnership story.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:03:52] And so, you know, there are challenges with conservation organizations. And by that, I mean, you know, they’re influential people. And so, at times, even though we’re charged with the management of the species, you know, there’s times where the direction that we might be taking doesn’t necessarily align with what their view of the direction it might be. And so, you know, there are conflicts like that. I’m not going to shy away from that.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:04:26] But luckily, when you have a solid relationship, you know, these disagreements can be had, these tough conversations can be had, and everybody gets around the table because the one common goal that we have is we all want the betterment, we’re all working towards the betterment of sheep or wildlife. And so, we all get together, work those differences out, hand shake, and then we move forward. And that’s true for any partnership. And then fortunately, you know, again we do have our differences. But we all come back around and once the dust settles, we all refocus on, okay, this is the direction that we’re going. Everybody hand-in-hand.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:05:17] So, it is challenging, but it’s very, very rewarding as well because you get to see the benefit of all that collaborative work.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:05:30] Another partner, well, two other partners that often I guess don’t get mentioned is our research partners. We tend not to focus on one university. We’re very fortunate to have Sul Ross and BRI, the Borderlands Research Institute, very fortunate to have them as neighbors here in Alpine. And so, it’s very easy for us to say, to go to them and say, “Hey, we’ve got these questions. Can you help us answer them?” And they’ve been very helpful and instrumental in collaborating with us. The research projects that I mentioned earlier, they’ve all been very involved.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:06:19] But, you know, we try, and we’ve been very good at, inviting other universities. And so, we’ve partnered with A&M – Kingsville. We’ve partnered with Texas A&M – College Station, Texas Tech University. You know, so, we’ve partnered with other universities and luckily everybody gets along, because everybody sees, you know, and is working off the same vision.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:06:51] So, while it’d be very easy for us to work, and we did that in the early years, we did that work hand-in-hand with BRI and Sul Ross, here at Alpine, you know we’ve invited other partners and fortunately it’s working really well because again, we all work under the same mission, the same vision.

 

David Todd [02:07:12] Okay. Well, you’ve been very generous with your time. We should probably start to think about sort of a summary of where we’ve been, where you’ve been, what we’ve talked about, what we haven’t talked about. And, I was hoping that you could look back over your career and tell me, you know, when you think about your bighorn work, are there some highlights that pop out, and say, that worked really well, or that didn’t work very well? You know, in both respects, successes and challenges?

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:07:47] Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, so there’s been a few challenges that I’m proud that I was part of and, you know, that stick out as highlights, but there’s probably a lot more challenges than there have been highlights. But fortunately, those highlights have been major highlights for me that even though there’s lots of challenges, I’m still able to look back and say, “Man, you know, that’s been good.” You know, I’ll take the beating if I’m able to eat some cake.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:08:23] And so, some of those, you know, I’ll focus on some of the challenges, you know, that we’ve had. And some of the challenges that we’ve had have, they all, you know, I guess revolve around some of the activities that we do that are less than palatable. Or, perhaps I should say they’re poorly understood. And so, we often get, you know, well, so we get beat up for it.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:08:57] And, and, you know, those challenges are exactly what we’ve been talking about – the aoudad. The aoudad is an exotic, and we, as an agency, are charged with managing our wildlife species. And so, we have to eliminate those exotics. And so, aerial gunning is not a very popular topic amongst the general public because it gets, again, it’s poorly understood. And so, I’ll take responsibility for that. I’ve done a poor job of educating the public, you know, why the aoudad is problematic. And so I’ve done a poor job of that. And so, those are some of the, some of the, I guess, not so glamorous moments.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:09:49] And the other thing is, is also the elimination, or not the elimination, but the removal of another animal. And that’s the mountain lion. You know, there’s a place for the mountain lion. I recognize that, but I also recognize that sometimes that dirty work needs to be done. And again, it’s one of those concepts that’s poorly understood. And we and I have done a poor job of educating the public that our goal is not to eliminate the mountain lion from its native range. And so, all we’re trying to do is give the bighorns just a fighting chance so that they can establish and thrive, become a viable population. And then they both, the mountain lion and the bighorn, can coexist on the same landscape.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:10:41] And so those have been some of them, you know, and they tend to come back every now and again. So, those have been some of the not so glamorous moments.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:10:51] Any time we have a disease event, and particularly the ones that we’re having now, you know, that’s not a glamorous moment. It’s not a glamorous moment to say, five years ago, we had 1500 animals and we were at 1800 levels. And now having to admit that we we’re half of that and having to work through that.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:11:15] So, these are, you know, maybe I wouldn’t say lows, you know, because it all comes with the territory. But I wouldn’t say that they’re essentially lows in my career. And I’m going to look back and say, “Man, that was depressing.” But it is. You know, it does force you to work a little a little more at your job.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:11:34] But you know, some of the highs that certainly stand out: I was fortunately a part of the 2000 capture from Elephant to Black Gap, and that occurred in December of 2000 when Texas Parks and Wildlife moved 45 animals to the Black Gap area. And that had been the most animals that had ever been, free-ranging animals, that had ever been caught in Texas since the restoration effort.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:12:10] And me, I was, you know, I was still a peon, even though I was 30 years old. I was still a peon in the wildlife profession. In fact, I was a graduate student. And the only reason I got to be part of it is because I was a graduate student and I had done my Master’s on Elephant, and I had a good relationship with those Parks and Wildlife guys that were at Elephant Mountain at the time. So that’s, that’s a high for me.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:12:34] That’s my first exposure to a true capture and helicopter net gun. Hands on the animal, put them on a trailer, wrangling them and getting them in the boxes, getting them out. You know, so that was, you know, so that was a high.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:12:49] The other high came ten years later, in 2010. And I was not in this position yet, but I was transitioning into this position. I was still a biologist at Elephant Mountain, but at that time we also captured 45 animals. And we took them to Big Bend Ranch State Park. And that was the first time taking bighorns to a state park, but also to an area that had been void of sheep since their extirpation. So, you know, we’re talking over 50 years, and that was a high-profile, you know, high-profile capture. And so, that was a highlight of highlight, you know, one of the highlights of my career.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:13:35] Again, I was in transition. I was fortunate enough to coordinate that, to come up with the plan, even though I wasn’t in the position, I was given the opportunity to do that, to assume that role. And so, that was, you know, that was a highlight of that.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:13:51] The other one came just a couple of years later. And we took sheep to the first private property since the restoration effort had begun. I mean, there was private releases, but this was a major release, and we took another 44 animals to a private ranch, to a mountain range that’s situated within a private ranch. I dislike using private restocking, though. It was kind of seen that way. But we took them down to 9 Point, but the landowner had done his thing, allowed access, and he continues to be a very, very cooperative landowner in terms of research and whatnot.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:14:34] So, that was a highlight, because that was the first time we were taking, and developed a cooperative agreement with the landowner to allow access, to allow hunting, those kinds of things. Yeah. So, that, you know, that was a highlight.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:14:48] But probably, the biggest highlight to date has been going to the Sierra Diablo mountains and capturing sheep on the Sierra Diablo mountains and bringing them, and taking them to the Sierra Vieja mountains, because all these other captures had been from a public land and taken sheep to public land, or taken taking bighorns to public land, or taking bighorns to a mountain range that was in public and private property. But it had all been on Parks and Wildlife property.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:15:28] But, the Sierra Diablo capture occurred on private property. And so, that took special coordination because it had required a special trust between us, in other words, the agency, and landowners – that we were taking bighorns, the ones that they had stored, that they had grown, that they had, you know, vested interest in. So, it required that special trust for us to go in there and take sheep, capture sheep, from private property and take them to state land.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:16:07] And so, you know, it was challenging. There were a few folks that said that that would never happen. And perhaps going back to how our conversation started, and someone telling me that’s not going to happen, maybe lit that fire in me to say, “No, we’re going to, we’re going to do everything we can to make it happen.” And, and it did. It required special trust with those private landowners.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:16:34] So, that occurred in 2011. And, you know, lots of other things went on, you know, professionally, personally in my life. That stands out as, at that time, in my professional career, in my personal life, stands out as a highlight of my life, not just my professional career, but of my life. Because again, there was just lots of things going on.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:17:05] And then, hopefully, in October, this will also be a high-profile capture and translocation, because the Franklins, for various reasons, were not a priority even though they were great, or they are great, bighorn habitat and historical habitat. They were not a priority, because they’re essentially situated in, you know, within a city. And so, again, we were told, or I was told, that that would never happen. Fortunately, we’re faced with a situation where we might make it happen and we’re planning to make it happen. Everything’s pointing there. Let me knock on wood. And hopefully we’ll get it done in October. And that’ll be another, another highlight of my career.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:17:54] But if I had to select one, it was likely the capture, the Van Horn capture of 2011.

 

David Todd [02:18:01] All right. Well, it’s very neat that these captures and translocations are continuing. You’ve got a lot of stick-to-itiveness. You know, just keep doing it. And that leads me to this second-to-last question. And that is, as you look into the future, you know, what do you think are the big challenges, that you’re facing for the bighorn sheep, and the opportunities for that matter?

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:18:32] Well, yeah. So, there’s always opportunity. I firmly believe that with every challenge, comes an opportunity. And, and so, you know, one of the major challenges that I foresee in the future, in the immediate future, as well as the long-term future is that is that of the aoudad, because there’s just a ton of them. And it’s going to require a change in mindset, a change in mindset in us, within the agency and biologists, and a change in mindset in landowners.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:19:10] And what I mean by that is, you know, again, they make supplemental income off of hunting. And I get it, I totally get it. I completely understand where they’re coming from. You know, it’d be ludicrous, it is ludicrous for me to say, get rid of all your aoudad when they’re making 60, 70, 80,000, in some cases, you know, 200,000 on aoudad hunts. I could not, I cannot in my right mind, ask a landowner to get rid of that potential income, or supplemental income.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:19:41] So, so, that’s going to continue to be a huge challenge.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:19:45] Hopefully, some of the research that we’re doing will help us with the education. And it’ll help us say, “Look, we have too many are aoudad because, not only are they a threat to our native species, but probably more importantly, they are a threat to our habitat.” And once you degrade the habitat, it doesn’t matter if you’re an aoudad, or if you are a bighorn, or if you’re a mule deer, if you have no habitat, nothing’s going to survive.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:20:14] So, hopefully this research will allow us to do that. And we’ll be able to tell landowners, “Look, we’re charged with managing our native species, but you’re allowed to keep a few aoudad on the landscape and still make your supplemental income.”

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:20:29] And so, we’re trying to, with this research, we’re trying to see where that threshold is of what bighorns and aoudad and the habitat will tolerate, you know. And then we’ll be able to have a better argument to a landowner: “Get rid of, you know, some X number of aoudad, and you’ll still be able to take advantage of the supplemental income.”

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:20:53] So again, the aoudad will continue to be a challenge.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:20:58] And then, the other challenge: you know, mountain lions will always be a charismatic animal. And until we, do a good job of, you know, dispelling some of the misinformation out there, and do a better job of educating the public of how it’s one of those ugly things that’s needed, but it’s only needed temporarily. And once you get past that, you know, once you get past that point, then hopefully, you know, hopefully it’s not needed. So, that will always be a challenge. Once you get to that point, you know, it might ease up.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:21:34] But probably the biggest challenge given is us – just people and the different goals that they have for their property. You know, just the different things that they perceive – the differences of opinion. You know, we are probably our own biggest challenge, because even here within the agency, even amongst the wildlife biologists and professionals, you know, we disagree on what the best way it might be to get from point A to point B. So, you know, the biggest challenge will always be us.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:22:14] But again, you know, with that challenge comes that opportunity to reach out and say, “All right, we’ve got these differences. Let’s sit down and find the common goals, find those common grounds and build upon the common ground. Let’s not focus on the differences, but focus on the common grounds and build upon that.”

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:22:35] And I think if we do that, then the aoudad challenges, the mountain lion challenges, all these other intricacies will fall in place, if we as humans are able to sit down and build upon our uniqueness, not necessarily our differences.

 

David Todd [02:22:57] Yeah, I’ve heard an old saying that, “We’ve met the enemy, and he is us.” I think that’s very true.

 

David Todd [02:23:07] Well, last question, and I’ll let you go. I know you’re probably getting hungry for dinner. You know, you’ve worked on this bighorn sheep for many years, and for that matter, mountain lions, aoudads. I’m curious when you think about these animals, and particularly the sheep, what do you think the value is in them. I mean, why care? You know, there are a lot of people who this is not, you know, their bread and butter. This is not what they do every day. They don’t know much about it. They may not really understand. How do you explain to them why it’s important to you and should be important to them?

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:23:50] I mean, is it an ecological question? Is it kind of a moral thing? Or is it a spiritual thing? How would you explain it?

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:23:57] It’s a combination of all of those things. It’s a combination, I guess. It’s a biological thing or ecological thing. You know, however you want to look at it. Bighorns were here. And I’ll take an even a bigger picture. Wildlife was here, and it was in a stable state before humans came and disrupted. And so, you know, from that point it becomes, well, at that point, it’s a biological thing. Bighorns are a part of the ecosystem. You know, they fill a niche. For it to be in a stable state, everybody, all the animals and the plants, the community, the ecological community is in a stable state when everything’s functioning.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:24:50] We came and, you know, disrupted it.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:24:53] And so, because of that, it turns into a moral question. Even though I wasn’t the one that caused it, it was because of us that it’s in the state that it’s in. And so, I think it’s collectively our responsibility to do the things that we can, given the tools that we have, and given the circumstances that we’re faced with.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:25:20] We’re certainly not living in 1800 times. So, there’s a lot more, there’s a lot more human impact on the environment. And so, given all that, I think it’s still our responsibility to do the things that we can, what’s within our ability, to bring it back to as a stable state as it was, you know.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:25:46] Should you care? I think you should, if you’re a moral person, even though you didn’t have anything to do with it. I think you should, because indirectly you’re influencing it – somehow or other, indirectly. You might be further removed than I am, but the general public, you know, is indirectly influencing some of these, some of these challenges that we face.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:26:10] You know, for instance, the degradation of habitat. The degradation of habitat, and habitat fragmentation, is probably one of the leading causes of species decline, and in some cases, species extinction. But yet we want more shopping malls. We want more houses. We want to live in the country. And so, there’s property that is being subdivided.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:26:40] So, in one form or another, you know, humans are impacting just ecological states. And because of that, you know, I think that everybody should care, you know, at some level, maybe not at the level that I do, but everybody should care at some level.

 

David Todd [02:27:01] Well, very persuasive. So, lots, lots we’ve covered. Thank you so much for being so patient. Is there anything you’d want to add before we let you go?

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:27:15] Yep. Absolutely. And so, before I do go, I want to thank you for the opportunity to present this and provide, I guess, my story. I always say “my story”. And typically, in my story, I’m talking about sheep. But, you know, you added the personal touch of my early beginnings, and not a lot of folks know that. I tend to be somewhat of a private person, and not that I’m hiding anything. It’s just, you know, as I mentioned, I don’t like talking about myself.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:27:47] And so, you know, my beginnings were pretty humble beginnings. And I’m proud of that. I’ve never forgotten that. In fact, I tell my children, “Don’t ever forget where you came from. And remembering where you came from will keep you grounded.”

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:28:02] So, I don’t like to talk about those things. But it is the reason why I think I have been able to stay grounded.

 

[02:28:10] So again, thank you for sharing that part of my story. But thank you also because without what you do, and the work that you all do that are in the media or in publications and articles and, you know, you reach a bigger audience then than I could. Most of the talks I give, it’s people that are interested, it’s outdoor people. And so they sit there and they listen. A lot of things that I’m saying, I’m preaching to the choir. Right? And so, having these venues, it reaches a greater mass of folks. And hopefully it helps in that, you know, that publication aspect that I say we’ve been failing in.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:28:55] So again, thank you for what you do. Please know that I greatly appreciate that.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:29:01] And then the other thing that I’d like to mention, and we talked about it, you know, quite extensively, is about the aoudad issue. And so, oftentimes, we are seen as aoudad haters or aoudad killers. And I like to, you know, I like to emphasize and clarify that I don’t hate aoudads. You know, in fact, I think that they’re pretty cool. They’re a very hardy animal. And so, I have respect for those. You know, it’s unfortunate for them that I’m charged with the responsibility, as a wildlife biologist, to manage for native species and eliminate, or do the things that I need to do to remove those exotic species from the landscape.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:29:46] So, you know, I’d like to clarify that. And the best way I can put it into perspective is, aoudad are an exotic that come from the Barbary Coast of Africa. And if I was an aoudad biologist on the Barbary Coast of Africa, and they brought desert bighorn sheep in, then it would be my responsibility to do the things that I needed to do to make sure that the aoudad thrived, and eliminate the desert bighorn from that habitat.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:30:18] You know, and so I, as a biologist, you know, I firmly believe believe that. So, I’m not a aoudad hater. It’s just my responsibilities dictate that I do those things.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:30:30] So that’s, you know, that’s the other thing I want to clarify.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:30:37] The second to last thing is I don’t hate sheep, domestic sheep or goats either. I see their value. They’ve got a place. And, you know, there’s places, particularly in the West, where it’s very divided. You’re either a livestock producer or you’re a wildlife biologist. And it’s difficult for them to kind of find any, any common ground.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:31:02] Fortunately, again, I was raised on a livestock ranch that had sheep and mohair goats. And so, I’m able to see that aspect of it. And I’m also, you know, schooled in wildlife and now have experience in wildlife management. And so, you know, I see the place for both and I think there’s common ground. And so, I don’t hate sheep and goats. And when we say it was because of the domestic sheep and goat industry that bighorn saw their demise, I’m merely stating the facts. But I have nothing against the livestock industry. I grew up in it, and then I have respect for them, for livestock producers, and I see the value in the livestock industry.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:31:48] And then the last thing that I want to mention is, you know, you mentioned it, is partnerships. This is not a Texas Parks and Wildlife story. This is a true partnership story, and probably the most important partnership (and they’re all important), but the most important partnership, moving forward, is the landowner.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:32:15] As you know, Texas is over 95% privately owned. And so, for us to restore those mountains which are on private property is going to require private landowners’ support and cooperation. And so, for us, as an agency and the bighorn program to continue the restoration effort, you know, it’s crucial that we have great landowner relations and great landowner partnerships, because without them, we’re absolutely not going to be able to continue our bighorn story.

 

David Todd [02:32:55] Yes. It takes a lot of diplomacy and negotiation skills, I bet. Well, you’ve got those, that’s part of your tool kit, along with your net gun and your mugging gear and all that.

 

David Todd [02:33:12] And, I wanted to thank you for sharing this. It’s fascinating what you’re doing out there, and I wish you the best. And, have a good evening. I’m going to cut this thing off and just say goodbye and thank you.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:33:31] Yes, sir. No, thank you again. Appreciate what you’re doing. And thank you for the opportunity.

 

David Todd [02:33:36] It’s been a pleasure. Thank you.

 

David Todd [02:33:38] Here we go.

 

Froylan Hernandez [02:33:39] Yes, sir.

 

David Todd [02:33:40] All right.